Standarts of accuracy

[Loki]

discussion to the thema was whatever is viable to set up a set of targets of known dimensions and distance, which everybody could use, chart our progress on internet and evalute what is or what is not possible in terms of heavy bow shooting.

I like the sound of the man or horse sized targets,if the heavy bow shooters could agree on the dimensions and have a few test shots we'd have a better idea of what the Bows are capable of,but it still wont put them in the hands of a 14CE Archer,who i think its fair to say,was head and shoulders above todays standards.
Personnaly i'm not a a very good shot with my Bow but i'm confident enough to hit targets at 70mts,nothing bracelet size mind you,i'm just happy if i hit the bail  .
However,Mark Stretton won the Herstmonceaux tournament three years on the trot with his 160lb WarBow,so he's pretty accurate with his,the rest of us need to catch up to his and Simon's standards  .

[Yeomanbowman]

Hello All,
I just wanted to say that I’ve known Outcaste for longer than I care to remember and can vouch for the fact that he’s passionate about English warbows.  He also makes beautiful bows drawing well over 100Lbs out of what I’d use for kindling.  They are all from period woods and he shoots them to their capacity.  He’s a hardcore English warbow archer without doubt. 
I think some people need to be slower to judge and less dogmatic in regards to their own opinion, however a frank and BS free exchange of view is always welcome.  Jaro, I’d love to see some of the warbows you’ve made and a clip of your shooting.  Josh has said it was very helpful with his own style.
Cheers,
Jeremy 

[outcaste]

I was doing some practical testing the other day and thought that some of you guys might be interested.

I made up six arrows to initially test performance from a self-yew bow I had just made together with species performance of shaft wood.

Arrow Specs:,
2 X ½ in Pop 75 grams Bobtail last 12in
2 X ½ in Ash 75/77grams Full Bobtail
1 X ½ in Birch 80 grams Full Bobtail
1 X ½ in Beech 84 grams Full Bobtail

All fletched with 71/2 X ¾ in Goose (apart from one Ash that used Swan).
All 31½ inch long from head
Heads all long type10 and 20grams (approx) apart from a 25gram on one of the Pop shafts

With regards to distance the Pop shaft out performed the others (though this was arguably the wood I was using as I was unable to work the others down to the desired weights for the spec and It is something I shall be pursuing). What was interesting was regards to accuracy a mark was set at around 220 yards and all the arrows consistently fell with ten or so yards either side of this mark. Which I feel is not too bad considering the distance. When compared to the 3/8 shafts I was also testing I found that there was a much wider spread. This I feel was due to the various elastic moduli of the woods at that diameter being affected by head weight (or perhaps a poor loose!). From my standpoint the larger shaft diameter allowed for a more consistent, straighter and accurate shot over that distance.

For the record the bow I used was 741/2 in between the nocks and 112@32 and constructed from Welsh yew.

Regards, Outcaste 

[SimonUK]

That's very impressive from British yew Outcaste. Do you think the quality of wood in that particular bow was above average?

It's also interesting about the accuracy. I wonder if the heavy front end of the 1/2 inch arrow acts like a heavy arrowhead, reducing the dynamic spine.

[outcaste]

Hi Simon,

Yes I am pleased with the results! At some point I must take some photos and post them. But just to say that the growth rings are very tight for the the first 6mm or so then they open up, it looks like a lamination of sorts. I also took the sapwood down to a single growth ring. The bow also has quite a lot of string follow, but shoots really smooth.

Cheers, Outcaste

[alanesq]

Altough I think a sporting bow accuracy should not be used as comparative discipline a heavy bow shooter, apart of being able to pull his bow should be able to comand his bow safely, he also should be able to actually hit something.

It has been my goal since getting into warbows (around 4 months ago) to see how accurate I can get with one rather than how heavy a bow I can pull (although having said that I have just jumped up 30 pounds)
it's early days yet.  I was beginning to doubt it was possible myself but then last weekend I suddenly started hitting a group at 30 yards of around 2" (which is very good for me anyway) but then I lost it again
This has proved to myself that these bows can be as accurate as a Victorian type bow given enough practise / skill, and my quest continues ;-)

One day I would love to enter a target competition with my warbow, it would be great to get a decent score with a 120lb bow against Victorian bows (and I have a great excuse if I don't do well ;-)

[duffontap]

I hope everyone sees that we can do something positive in the progress of modern warbow shooting by using the benchmark that Jaro is talking about to judge our accuracy.  This is a great idea. 

Here is what I would say Jaro's suggested benchmark boils down to:

With what consistency can you shoot a very heavy arrow [75 gram (1,157.4 grains give or take)]:

1.  A target 6' tall by 2' wide at 100 yards.
2.  A target 6' by 6' at 200+ yards. 

I'll wait for Jaro to chime in on the target dimensions listed above--if they're good enough for him we'll call it standard. 

Accepting such a standard as a means of proving accuracy from one warbow shooter to the next would be very helpful.  This is similar to the standardization of the 4' bulls-eye target that all Victorian longbow competitions use.  Horace Ford was able to prove his ability by this standard.  He would never have impressed us as much by telling us about great shots he had made at flying targets or running squirrels. 

I'll do some tests with my own equipment soon.  Great idea Jaro.

                   J. D. Duff

[alanesq]

As at longer distances we will probably normally be aiming for a flag or similar marker would it be an idea to have a set distance and rate our accuracy by the average size grouping we are acheiving around this marker ?

e.g. You could have a rating of 5 foot at 220 yards

this would mean that all you need to test yourself is a tape measure

[sagitarius boemoru]

J.D. That is about what I thought. Anyway - off course we can use flag as this is clout shooting (which as discipline is remnant of medieval and renaissance shooting), but it would be nice to actually use something which resembles the original target.

If you hit it just counts.  I reckon such target can be made from cardboard easy.

3´ wide target at 100 yrds is more likelly like armored man.

Jaro

[duffontap]

Then 3' by 6' tall at 100 yards (representing an armored night) and 9' by 6' tall at 200 yards (representing 3+ nights together or two mounted nights, etc). 

What percentage would you guess at being suitable accuracy?  10 of 12 arrows on target?  8 of 12?

             J. D. Duff

[sagitarius boemoru]

I think with a bow which does have decent armour piercing capability if half of the shots hit its acceptable.

(Se how cleverly I avoided specification of weight)


Jaro

[sagitarius boemoru]

We should not forget, that medieval archers have to be able to judge distance well, when they shot sucessfully at advancing enemy. And judging the distance is the harder part.

Jaro

[Badger]

At 100 yards i would be impressed to see an archer hit a hay bale with some consistency say 3 out of 5, at 200 yards if one could place the arrows in a 6 meter  square that i would consider pretty good also. Steve

[Yeomanbowman]

Chaps,
I'm not sure this really advances the issue of acceptable accuracy but even a mediocre archer is more accurate than a man armed with a musket, circa 17th century.  Yet these were effective enough in massed a volley at close range and with a slow rate of fire.

[sagitarius boemoru]

You mean low individual rate of fire, not total. Musketry routine is based on the rows of people reloading while others discharge. The main advantage of arquibuis or musket is a fact you can take a person which is not very physically fit and make out of him a musketeer in relativelly short time. On the other hand to have a good archer you need to start him early and train at least couple of years.

Musket accuracy in 17. century was based on hiting barn door at prescribed distance. (I provide exact distance, my friend has a musket, hell know it.)


But this is comparing apples and oranges.

Jaro