Wood burning on the belly

[Marc St Louis]

If the bow you are making is a very low stress design then perhaps it would be acceptable but as far as I'm concerned burning, carving or any other practice that marks the bow's belly or back can only cut down on the lifespan of said bow.  If you make your own bows then maybe you can accept this shorter life span but if you are making bows for someone else, to give or sell, then it's a bit foolhardy.

[youngbowyer33]

If the bow you are making is a very low stress design then perhaps it would be acceptable but as far as I'm concerned burning, carving or any other practice that marks the bow's belly or back can only cut down on the lifespan of said bow.  If you make your own bows then maybe you can accept this shorter life span but if you are making bows for someone else, to give or sell, then it's a bit foolhardy.

I agree, i think it will almost definitely affect the lifetime of the bow.

[Irontom]

This seems like a good conversation to jump in with a question about grain violation on the back of a bow.

This bow here;
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,21105.0.html

How?  It is a pretty popular opinion to never do such things, yet there it is...

[sailordad]

personally i never had luck with bows having carved backs and longevity

[adb]

This seems like a good conversation to jump in with a question about grain violation on the back of a bow.

This bow here;
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,21105.0.html

How?  It is a pretty popular opinion to never do such things, yet there it is...

That is a beautiful bow, with amazing art work, but not somethig I'd do... unless the bow is a display piece. I've done similar backing art, but with pen and paint on rawhide.

[Marc St Louis]

This seems like a good conversation to jump in with a question about grain violation on the back of a bow.

This bow here;
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,21105.0.html

How?  It is a pretty popular opinion to never do such things, yet there it is...

These bows are made from quarter sawn boards.  Trying to do this on a stave bow or a plain sawn board invites disaster.  Quarter sawn boards of a tension strong wood may tolerate this type of violation for awhile but to expect longevity out of a bow done like this just doesn't make sense.  I've had a number of bows explode on me at full draw using quarter sawn backings of Hickory and Elm, why I don't use them anymore.  I don't know about anyone else but I try to avoid full draw explosions of my bows.  They are not pleasant, not to mention the liability issues.

[sailordad]

 "I don't know about anyone else but I try to avoid full draw explosions of my bows.  They are not pleasant, not to mention the liability issues."
qoute from Marc St louis

not to mention they ruin a perfectly good pair of shorts to   

[sailordad]

scott i have a failed bow that was carved on the back.it failed right at the carving
i have another carved back bow that i wont shoot because it mafe that dreaded "tick" sound just pulling it to full draw
as far as having experience making them,i have none
i didnt make these bows,these were made by halfeye,so that takes my inexperience out of the equation 
this bow was light in the hand( i realy liked this bow untill it let loose ),shot the first 21 arrows with real authority and hit right where i aimed
arrow #22 was the death of this bow,which was to bad cause if you know me you know im nuts about turkey hunting.
and thats what i wanted this bow for,thought i would have some good mojo with the design and all
but no such luck
heres the pics ya asked for

[sailordad]

i completly understand
i hope this just makes some folks realize that i am not trying to pick on anyone
or put anyone down
but when asked my opinion on the subject i stick to my stance on it
i do it from my experience and mine alone
i know richs followers think i am trying to tarnish his rep and what not,but thats far from the truth
he makes wonderfully ornate bows
i think that if you want a bow to last you dont want to be messing with the back like that
once again this is my opinion from my experiences with carved back bows
i'll stick with my plain jane self bows
more my style any how
plain   simple   effective
nothing better than letting the big stick do the talking 

[n2huntn]

What is the longevity of a wood bow, years, decades?
Does anyone have an all wood bow that they have used for several years? If so when or how do you make the decision that its no longer safe to use?
Thanks

[sailordad]

i have one that was given to me by a guy that made it ten years back
im in the process of retillering it
its hhb and it sat in the rafters of his garage for years,it picked up some draw weight
when i tried to pull it to full draw i couldnt,he said it was tillered for 55-60#
on my scale it was pulling all that at about 20"

i think the true longevity of the bow all depends on the material,the design and proper tiller,and care for the bows lifetime
but they should hold up for more than handfull of arrows 

[Pappy]

Probably not ,but as Marc and Tim has said,I don't and wouldn't do it on any part of the working
limb.JMO. Knots and holes are a different thing,because they follow the grain.    
   Pappy

[half eye]

Hey Scott D,
        Since ya seem to want some information because your are genuinely interested, I'd be glad to help you out. Went back through my files and notes and here is the info regarding the carved back bows. I made 13 carved bows + the one I just now finished for Wolfsongforge (Orm Koss II)
(2) went to Sailordad....they were reported as crap
(1) went to Idaho....it shot well, but was light so it got "piked" 4" and was not retillered.....it broke (was replaced and that bows is
      is still doing well)
(1) went to Gothmog, it was made of curly oak pulling about 70#, it shot well was overdrawn by a friend of the owner and it broke
     at a grain sworle.
(1) was broken purposely to see how far it would overdraw before letting go.
(2) were underweight and cut up (limbs saved for use as Seax scabbards)
(6) are currently in the field and shooting fine (various PA friends have them)
(1) Current Wolfsongforge bow (Orm Koss II) is being sent out tomorrow, It is shooting well but hasn't been around long enough to say what will become of it....only time will tell.
       I have only been carving the backs of  bows for about a year so none of these are old enough to say what their longevity will be. So the answer to your question is: 4 crap bows (28.5%) 3 bows (21.4%) purposely destroyed and 7 bows (50%) still alive and kicking
       These are the facts, hope they help ya with whatever purpose ya need 'em for. There was one other that I know of....Riley Concrete carved the back on a bow and it is still shooting just fine. If anyone else has carved any maybe they can advise what their results were.
rich

[half eye]

I know that Cass (Wyoming) shoots his two about every day, to build himself up, The one in Missouri, has been shot in and will be in the deer woods this year (dont know how many arrows) but it was shot enough to convince Jeff to take it hunting. The other three I haven't heard back about so I dont know how much shooting they have gotten.

All the bows were Mollegabets except one of Cass's which is like a pyramid in shape but skinny in width like a long bow. (Something on the order of 1-1/8" at the grip fade to 1/2" at the tips. (carved in a Celtic knot pattern), and the 2 pyramids that went to sailordad.

One other thing is about finishes....used to use the standard true-oil, lacquer, poly finishes and had touble with going from wet Michigan to dry conditions. Now that I switched to the grease treatment that has not been an issue so far. Like Cass's bows in Wyoming....it's pretty dry there and the only problem so far is that the bows have gained draw weight over the course of nearly a year.

The only other thing about the carving that I have noticed is ya need to keep the background pretty even in depth. If you get carried away in depth in a small area it's like making a hinge or something similiar and you will create a weak point where the force can accumulate. Actually the complicated patterns (little background cut out) work better (bow wise) than small patterns with a lot of background cut out area. These take a little longer but work out better.
rich

[Marc St Louis]

Well 50% survival rate is not so good, heck 75% survival rate is not that good either.  If you make bows and have a survival rate of less than 90% then there is room for improvement.

The bow than Tim posted is a classic tension failure.  Elm is a strong in tension wood but if you want a bow that you can rely on in the field then I would say it's best to keep them clean.

These style bows that Rich makes are spectacular in appearance, they are functional and I'm sure require a great deal of time and effort to make.  All I can say is that if the guys that like them want to keep using them then go for it, I'll stick to a clean back.