Serious discussion about hunting heads

[Blacktail]

First off, I wanted to show you that I know how to knap "arrow heads" and what the ideal point would look like but what I am wanting to talk about today is a serious discussion on what a HUNTING point should be. I know a few guys who hunt with actual points they made and they are not fancy heads by any means but they are lethal weapons. I feel that an actual hunting head does not need to have scar flaking across the face, they can just have general shape and a cutting edge. The reason why I am posting this is because last week I made a primitive arrow and the hardest thing for me was hafting the point I have on it. I think there is a difference between someone knapping a point and someone knapping points for actual hunting. What I found out was that 90% of the points that I make are really thick on the base and for hafting they have to be a lot thinner. So in the last two photos I have, I was wondering if this could be considered an actual hunting head (I dont mean by state laws or any of that but in the general sense) It is a small flake and I just put a general shape and a sharp edge and that is really it. The first is my regular arrowhead. I have seen some of Billly's hunting heads but it is hard in a photo sometimes to really see what the head is about.  Someday when I get some money I want to get Billy to knock me out a head that he would hunt with so I can use it for my own example. Anyways, what is your opinions and thoughts on this and what do you really think about the last two photos. THanks, John.

[Hillbilly]

The main criteria for a hunting point for me is sharp and straight. Flake scars don't matter, you just don't want a big lump or something that will keep it from penetrating. I want the edges thin and sharp. If I were going to hunt with that one in the last pic, I would do a good bit more edge work on it with a fine-tipped flaker-take those deltas off and give it some micro-serrations all the way down the edge. Balance and straightness is important too-if it don't spin straight without wobbling, it won't fly straight. I like the shape of the first one better-good length/width ratio for penetration. I usually make my hunting points triangular, about 2"-2 1/2" long and an inch wide with shallow side notches. 

[cowboy]

I'm like Hillbilly. I would micro serate those edges for better penetration. I like to keep the bases thin for hafting and like the simple triangular side notched for easy knapping. Purty don't matter as  long as thier straght and sharp.

[nugget]

My hunting points are ugly, as are my regular points I have ahd the same problem with the bases being thick. I have used thicker ended shafts to mount those. Like Hillbilly said get the cutting edges thin and try to keep it balanced.

[Wolf Watcher]

A couple years ago Cowboy sent 6 points to Hawk Huston and myself to hunt elk with.  I was amazed as when I put my points with his you could not tell the difference in size and design.  I like to look at a point on its edge.  It needs to be straight with a thin base, good simple nocks, edges sharp with no deltas, and I make the point a tiny bit thick for penetration.  Hafting it on the shaft straight so it doesn't wind plane is also very important.  Some materials are tougher than others but the design is about the same.  This is just my opinion and looking at original points from this area the natives were not so particular.  A well placed shot is propably more important!  Joe

[Blacktail]

o.k. thanks guys...i didnt do any presure flaking on the last point yet...and i probley wont until ready for hunting...so,the last point could be used as a hunting...the reason for posting this is because i have alot of flakes that are thin and i dont want to throw them away...i think they still could be used for hunting deer or small game...so i am trying to salvage all my small flakes...thanks john

[Keenan]

 John this should be a great discusion. I have a few ideas and thoughts on this subject. Size sharpness and shape being critical.  I like my points long and slender with a fairly strong center ridge. The long and slender will penetrate better and though it may not cut as larger of hole when shot straight in that is rarely the case and a longer cutting edge has a better Chance severing an artery then a short cutting edge. Think of it, as if it was a long serrated blade being drawn across a surface, vs a short bade being draw across the same surface.  Most shots enter at a slight angle and a longer slender blade can cut a big hole without hindering penetration.  This design also has less chance a wind planing or hitting bone, when going through the rib area.  For mounting, I have a board jig with a couple field points inserted on each end so that it forms a spin guide for the arrow. I generally will get the point fitted fairly well then place in the jig and spin check until it is true then a few drops of super glue to hold in place, then wrap with sinew, thread or hair. I also find that it is hard to get enough weight in the tip with the shorter points.   I'll try to get some pics of what I'm talking about.

[Wolf Watcher]

Thought of something else.  It depends on the animal you are shooting also.  A wide blade on a Mt. Goat for example is a no no as the hair is so dense.  Antelope have a very course hair and the Indians used serrated blades for penetration.  I try to make my points close to the same weight just to make them shoot alike as possible.  When I first started hunting elk and mule deer I made the points out of any kind of spall I found in chiping grounds and no two were ever alike an they were crude as all get out!  Worked just fine as long as I made a good shot.  We had lots of elk and deer so I did not take a shot that would let an animal dive off into some canyon that made for impossible retrieval.  A large heavy point can overwhelm a lighter bow so I think you need to consider the shafts you will be using and the poundage of your bow.  Just more of my opinion.  Joe

[Keenan]

Good points Wolf

[ricktrojanowski]

This is a great discussion, I'm really hoping to get to the point this summer where I can make sharp matched hunting points.  All of this info is really helpful.

[jamie]

not much to add. these guys said it all. comes down to a clean straight edge. learning how to make a sharp edge is way more important than making pretty flake scars

[mullet]

  I do about the same as Paul and Hillbilly. With very fine edge micro flaking. I almost never notch my points, I don't think it is really necessary.

[Timo]

I've talked with alot of knappers/hunters on this subject,Most all agree,about edges,w/l ratios,and such. One thing they are all adamant about though is the base. Get it thin tapering to the thickest area of the point(center ridge) just where the arrow tapers out onto the point. The Clovis people are a prime example of this,fluting points in such a way to have the least resistance (shaft to point) to aid in penetration.

Works the same with arrow points,imo.

Another thing that some point out is a thing called "buroen" Not sure how to spell it, but basically it's making a diamond  or "Z"  shape on the tip. You only get one chance to get it right (of you shorten your point) . It envolves taking one flake from each corner of the tip to reveal a sharp clean edge.

Not easy to accomplish,but man it makes a scary sharp "chisel"tip.

[hawkbow]

I agree with Joe that pretty points don't work any better than a rough looking point as long as the edge is sharp..and the head is hafted on straight. I will ad that the wider points tend to not penetrate as well because of resistance against hair, bone, muscle and heavy feathers like on turkeys..  So a slightly narrower point will definitely penetrate better on Turkeys, bear, elk....etc..       

[Blacktail]

we have some good info on here...and i hope more people come in and give there info on what works for them...john