Question on West coast style shortbow (pics added)

[rileyconcrete]

I am in the process of tillering a 38" n/n short west coast style bow.  It is elm backed with two good sinew layers.  I have it at full brace and it is tillered pretty close at 15" draw.  What draw length do you guys think I may be able to get with this?  It seems to be bending pretty good and even the whole length of the bow  and doesnt make hardly any cracking sounds. I will try to get some pictures up as soon as the wife gets home.

Tell

[rileyconcrete]

i forgot to add that I reflexed it about 4-5 inches while I sinewed it. and after Brace it has about 1" reflex.

[adb]

Some pictures would be helpful.

[rileyconcrete]

Some Pics:

I know tiller isnt perfect yet, just want to know what you guys think about draw length

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[half eye]

Riley,
       Made an unbacked 36" Elm paddle-bow for a friend in Wyoming. It pulled to 18" without a problem, at which point it got too strong for this old man. I also believe these bows were used on horse-back which would limit the draw to even shorter than the "chest-draw" normally used.
      I don't know how much draw you want, but that bow would probably have been used "as it is". Sit on a stool and point the bow towards the floor at about 45 degrees and then pull up on the string untill your in a comfortable position.....you may be suprised how short you can actually draw it. Firing into a buffalo at 5 to 6 feet doesn't require much serious "aiming".
       I think your bow is bending very well, and the tiller looks good. Combined with your sinew backing I'll bet it's darned tough as well. For what's it's worth....theres an old saying from the native Americans....a good bow will put an arrow into an animal, a great bow will put it in to the feathers, and a fine bow will shoot it through the animal.....but even with the finest bow in the world....it is still the arrow that does the killing. You got a good bow there.
half eye

[rileyconcrete]

Thank you Half Eye.
That makes sense. You dont really hear alot about these bows.  I am really intrigued by them though.  I saw some in a museum in northern california, and ever since then I have wanted to make one.  what length were the arrows? Like 20" for a draw of about 18"? This thing is stout. I have no idea the poundage but it takes all I got to get her pulled back.  I may take it down to a more manageable draw weight but so far I am happy.

Thanks fr the insight.

tell

[Traxx]

I have seen original specimens that had the originall arrows with the set.Most of the West coast natives shot arrows much longer than the draw of the bow.Longer arrows were more foregiveing of parodox around wide handled bows as most were.Also they used very small heads that didnt weigh much,so longer made for less spine.Otherwise they would have had to use dinky little shafts,that wouldnt have been very durable.The draw weight of most of the WC bows were not heavy by todays standards.The other reason for the so called Bird points.Better penetration from lighter weight bows.I wish todays Hunting regulations would allow Bird points.

No offense,but i fail to see the connection of Buffalo hunting from Horseback and West coast Native style bows.Not the same people or use of such bows.

[Pappy]

That is looking good.
   Pappy

[half eye]

Hey Traxx,
      No offense taken ! I was just trying to point out the bows were purposely made to be "short stroked" (reduced draw length) I guess my analogy was poorly chosen. You are also very right about the long arrows....even with the Woodland Indians....they used some bows as short as 36" and in the early days they didn,t even have horses. Some of their hardwood arrows were long and even unfletched and some were in the 26" range. I think it may have to do with their draw style and early pinch grip (primary string grip).
      Also I've seen photos of some of the western natives using a thumb release drawn to the chest which seems maybe could shorten the draw also.
      Sorry for the bad analogy.
Half eye

[half eye]

Fellas,
     Here is a photo downloaded from a university sight containg old photos...The bow may be larger than 36"? but I believe it is west coast in origin. This guy appears to be shooting right handed, but off of the right side of the bow and I think he's using a modified thumb grip (much like the photos of ISHI although his bow is more up-right). Anyway....the point is you can see that he uses a short draw.
     Before I get strung up....yes I know old photos were "posed" by some white guy....but the bow handeling seems to be what I understand to be common from the experts that I have read.
half eye

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[rileyconcrete]

Man that guy looks like he is straight out of harry potter or something. Yeah I understand the draw and grip etc.  I think the Indians made good use of these bows and why wouldnt they make a longer one if these bows didnt function well?  I know they used different woods. Next I will try one out of Juniper.  Maybe make it a scosh longer, less wood and more sinew.  Then it will bend right around and give more draw length. 

[1/2primitive]

That bow looks like it's coming together for you.
Good job.

For the draw, generally 18" would be about normal, but I like to go at half the length of the bow, or a little over. I'll usually tiller it out a bit further, then shoot it unitl I find the draw that shoots the best.

These bows were not the type used from horseback, those are the bows from the great plains, belonging to the Sioux, Cheyenne, Osage and others. These short paddle bows were mostly shot form blinds at close range (as in under 10 yards).

The arrows were long for the draw length, and got up to 30-36" in length, with the majority in the 28-32" range. The extra length helped to steady the arrow as it came around the wide handle.
     Sean

[hammertime]

I think it's lookin good riely probably packs a real good punch good to see my elm in action.hammertime I just am finishing one up and hope to post it soon.hammertime.from WI

[rileyconcrete]

Thanks for the elm hammertime. It sure is good stuff. Ya got any more? I wouldnt mind trying to make a different style bow out of it.
Tell

[loefflerchuck]

Nice Riley! The elm worked for you. I have not worked with elm and dont know what kind of compression it can take with a sinew back, but I would try for 20" I have been replicating Miwok and Pomo bows the last few years from incense cedar and some Modoc style ones of rocky mountain juniper.
 You chose the bent tab knock style. This was one of the precautions some west coast tribes used to keep there very overdrawn bows strings from slipping off the knocks. Most of these bows were not too heavy. this allows a greater overdraw, and most have more than 2 layers of sinew. I have been using 4-6 layers. 1/3 plus total thickness. for my 38" bows the full draw was 25". I have had a couple develop some fretting that far overdrawn and had to reduce the weight of the bow and leave that part thick to keep from breaking the bow. One I didn't notice in time and I had to put in a plug.
 Although some of my bows are fine with this huge overdraw, I have eased back a bit. The bow I am finishing now is 44" 5 layers of sinew, 6 in the middle. 10" of frflex/recurve. 51# at 24". Hope this bow lasts forever.
  As far as your bow tiller goes. to get the max bend. You want a half circle. Bending evenly throughout the handle tips ect... and it looks to me like you may need a slight more bend through the handle section and more bend towards the tips. Take your time. when you get it up towards full draw use a tillering stick. Put it on the ground or a wall and trace the boew with chalk. Look at your outline and see what you need to do.
  Nice work and good luck