Author Topic: New Year Shooting at the Medieval Butts  (Read 52713 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Jaro

  • Member
  • Posts: 89
Re: New Year Shooting at the Medieval Butts
« Reply #60 on: December 30, 2009, 08:23:14 pm »
Doesnt change the fact that it is the backed bow, or I have not seen one.

J.

Offline jb.68

  • Member
  • Posts: 21
    • Ancestral Archer
Re: New Year Shooting at the Medieval Butts
« Reply #61 on: December 30, 2009, 08:43:32 pm »
The bow shown being shot is Osage, yew, Hickory - Made by Roy King
The other bow being handled by Robert Hardy is also Osage, Hickory - Made by Chris Boyton.

I have to agree that all shooting is at a target of some description, be it a flag in the ground, a spot on a tree or a patch on a bears backside.  ;)

Offline Yeomanbowman

  • Member
  • Posts: 283
    • warbowwales
Re: New Year Shooting at the Medieval Butts
« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2009, 05:59:15 am »
JB,
Would that be a real bear or a foam field target bear with a spotty back side? :D

Offline bow-toxo

  • Member
  • Posts: 337
Re: New Year Shooting at the Medieval Butts
« Reply #63 on: December 31, 2009, 10:39:54 pm »
Going to poke my oar in.  Define "Butts".  Butts is plural for Butt which means end, hence clout shooters refer to each round as an "end" "I shot 12 ends yesterday".  These days to say "I shot 12 butts yesterday" would sound like you've shot 12 arses, as opposed to 12 diminutive donkeys (asses).
Water butt, A container for collecting water at the END of a drain or soak away.
Cigarette butt.  The END of a cigarette, the finish.
It's perfectly good English from the Anglo-Saxon. 
Therefore it makes NO difference what the butt is made from.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No offense intended. Here’s my oar. It really helps communication  to stick to correct definitions and don’t get into discussions of what a longbow is that end up including flatbows, Holmegaard bows, shortbows of fibreglass or other inappropriate materials. There are  archery butts, pretty much any archery practice field, and there are medieval butts which are mounds of earth, usually constructed in facing pairs, of a specific size on which are fastened marks consisting of cloth or paper with a small spot of white or black and no Horace Ford coloured rings. That’s what’s in a name.

Of course an arrow in the gold is as good as an arrow in the white. My understanding is that facing butts were almost universal to save a lot of walking when only three arrows were shot at an end [in the one direction]. While there were no coloured rings to accumulate points, every mediaeval archery competition I know of followed simple rules. First, shooting order was determined usually two teams Then first arrow in the white won that end. If no one hit the white everyone went to the other end and closest arrow won. Other hits were considered worthless. Please decide. You’re shooting butts or shooting medieval butts

For those still confused about mediaeval butts I suggest http://www.englishwarbow.com/medieval-archery.html

     Happy New Year

Offline Phil Rees

  • Member
  • Posts: 116
Re: New Year Shooting at the Medieval Butts
« Reply #64 on: December 31, 2009, 10:52:39 pm »
from EWBS website
"An archery butt was nothing special in itself; it consisted usually of an earth bank, about the height of a man and probably as wide and as deep again. These would be allowed to grass over and upon which a target of cloth or paint could be put.

If you advertise a shoot at medieval butts, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that you'd be shooting at something that resembles the description above, and not a hay bale, after all the description is taken from the EWBS website. The last time I looked there were no hay bales depicted in the Lutteral Psalter

Offline Jaro

  • Member
  • Posts: 89
Re: New Year Shooting at the Medieval Butts
« Reply #65 on: January 01, 2010, 10:54:29 am »
If you want to be that pedantic, its "Luttrell psalter".

Obviously, due to scarcity of shooting sites big enough to accomodate warbow shots, that combined with low numbers of people which actually shoot big bows its not economical to make earthworks like those which were used even in target archery 200 years ago.


That said our first czech event accomodated 9 shooters who had all together 6 bows.

J.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 11:32:59 am by Jaro »

triton

  • Guest
Re: New Year Shooting at the Medieval Butts
« Reply #66 on: January 01, 2010, 11:08:38 am »
I can't get my head around the attitude of some on this topic.  is the pedantic attitude driven by jealousy?  or is it once again "I can't do it, so nor can anyone else"? Bow Toxo has visited England, did you see open swathes of countryside that would allow us to create earthen mounds?  You talk like you're reincarnated.  There have been a couple of Saracens heads shoots but these days, it's difficult to get genuine pickled heads and we may find ourselves accused of islamaphobia.  Get into the spirit of it for christs sake  ::)  If you can't be constuctive, BUTT out

Offline bow-toxo

  • Member
  • Posts: 337
Re: New Year Shooting at the Medieval Butts
« Reply #67 on: January 01, 2010, 02:39:04 pm »
I can't get my head around the attitude of some on this topic.  is the pedantic attitude driven by jealousy?  or is it once again "I can't do it, so nor can anyone else"? Bow Toxo has visited England, did you see open swathes of countryside that would allow us to create earthen mounds?  You talk like you're reincarnated.  There have been a couple of Saracens heads shoots but these days, it's difficult to get genuine pickled heads and we may find ourselves accused of islamaphobia.  Get into the spirit of it for christs sake  ::)  If you can't be constuctive, BUTT out
7

I didn't say that you should construct medieval butts. My point was that if you can't, don't call straw bales MEDIEVAL butts. The word has an actual meaning. Don't you even read English Warbow information? I would expect that, in this forum of all places, the word would not be so sloppily applied with so little respect for our heritage. If you can't live with calling the straw bales BUTTS, which they are, I can't imagine what you are trying to prove..

triton

  • Guest
Re: New Year Shooting at the Medieval Butts
« Reply #68 on: January 01, 2010, 02:55:19 pm »
I give up.  talk about missing the point.  for someone of obvious intelligence, you seem to find it easy to betray it.  What the butt is made from, makes no difference to the outcome, does it?  Are you sure you understand what the aim is?  And who's to say that all butts were constructed the same?  or am I talking to a timelord?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 03:01:09 pm by triton »

Offline outcaste

  • Member
  • Posts: 86
Re: New Year Shooting at the Medieval Butts
« Reply #69 on: January 01, 2010, 06:41:18 pm »
from EWBS website
"An archery butt was nothing special in itself; it consisted usually of an earth bank, about the height of a man and probably as wide and as deep again. These would be allowed to grass over and upon which a target of cloth or paint could be put.

If you advertise a shoot at medieval butts, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that you'd be shooting at something that resembles the description above, and not a hay bale, after all the description is taken from the EWBS website. The last time I looked there were no hay bales depicted in the Lutteral Psalter

Hi,

I am sorry this quote is not from the EWBS website but from englishwarbow.com. If you require more information on the EWBS then I would suggest looking at englishwarbowsociety.com. You will find out quite a lot, including shoot info, arrow specs and that sort of thing.

Alistair


Offline ChrisM

  • Member
  • Posts: 11
Re: New Year Shooting at the Medieval Butts
« Reply #70 on: January 02, 2010, 03:44:34 am »
from EWBS website
"An archery butt was nothing special in itself; it consisted usually of an earth bank, about the height of a man and probably as wide and as deep again. These would be allowed to grass over and upon which a target of cloth or paint could be put.

If you advertise a shoot at medieval butts, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that you'd be shooting at something that resembles the description above, and not a hay bale, after all the description is taken from the EWBS website. The last time I looked there were no hay bales depicted in the Lutteral Psalter

"usually", a useful word. A straw stack seems to me like an excellent alternative - then, as now - for a shoot held out of town. All that damned earth with pointy bits in it is a bitch to carry around.

Rod

  • Guest
Re: New Year Shooting at the Medieval Butts
« Reply #71 on: January 02, 2010, 06:48:46 am »
So it's a bale and not an earthen butt.
Unless you wish to sue under the Trade Description Act, I suggest that having made the point we let it go.

If a  landowner could be found who allowed construction of the butts and regular access for shooting at them, then it would perhaps be worth the trouble of constructing some earthen butts to an agreed size.
It is something I have contemplated.

I say agreed size, since an accepted format might prove useful for the purposes of comparison, should the day arrive when that is considered acceptable.

I agree with Jeremy that in mediaeval times it is likely that there was local variation in practice, though laws were passed from time to time prohibiting shorter distances so as to encourage strong shooting.

Nonetheless, to call targets of a standard size and recording scores a Victorian obsession is perhaps more a reaction against lawn archery and its lineal descendents GNAS and FITA target shooting than a balanced comment on past practice.

Whilst it is true that hits were in the past considered the real criterion, the use of a target of a more or less standardised size is ancient, since it has long been understood that a hit on a given sized mark at the distance offers a truer basis for comparison than hits on targets of different sizes.

As for continuing comment on user names, that could become a sport in it's own right.  ;)
Better to let it rest.

Rod.

« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 06:53:12 am by Rod »

Offline Dane

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,870
Re: New Year Shooting at the Medieval Butts
« Reply #72 on: January 02, 2010, 12:39:40 pm »
Hello everyone.

Hopefully, someone here can answer a question I posted a while back, but didn't get any definative answers.

I have the opportunity to build a replica earthen butt on my club's grounds. What I need to understand is what a medieval earthern butt looked like. How big in diameter it was, how tall was it, did it have sloping sides or just one side flattened for target placement, what kinds of targets do we think were used and how were they attached? Was the butt covered in grass or sod? Do they take a lot of maintenance?

It seems there are few if any replica soil medieval butts in existance, in England or elsewhere. I'd like to be able to build one (the size of the field I will construct on will allow only one butt, but that is far better than none :) ). I have the earth moving equipment at my disposal, and the labor, but need to design the thing and get started. I'm stuck on the design.

Can anyone help?

Thank you,

Dane

Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline Jaro

  • Member
  • Posts: 89
Re: New Year Shooting at the Medieval Butts
« Reply #73 on: January 02, 2010, 01:57:12 pm »
Contact Hugh Soar.

Offline Dane

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,870
Re: New Year Shooting at the Medieval Butts
« Reply #74 on: January 02, 2010, 08:45:37 pm »
Does he hang out here, or does he have a website or email to contact him?

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts