what lbs makes it a warbow insted of a longbow

[triton]

I shot a MR replica arrow from my 75# Bow and it only travelled about 80yds  .

And I bet you could have ran along side it 

[AD]

I also find this interesting, in that there differeing views and I am unable to make up my mind.  I just found Bickerstaffe's 'Medieval War Bows' book, flicked through it and it looks like he came to different conclusions in various areas:

Archers were expected to shoot 240 yards, but how was it measured?  By a man's pace or about 30 inches.  240 paces would be about 200 yards.
Goose feathers are not large enough to be made into 7.5inch triangular fletchings, it's likely they were shaped into swineback/hogsback, which enable an arrow to fly further.
His examination of the MR bows he found to be in support of his approximate 100lb @ 30inch standard bow.
He write that bows he made of Italian yew around 85lb @30 when drawn to 31.5 can reach the necessary distances.

Then there is the hemp/linen bowstring practical limitations, and the standardisation of thousands of pieces of equipment as previously mentioned.

I think that's a fair summary.
I'm not arguing, just reckon more evidence is needed for firm conclusions about medieval war bow weights.


Regards

[triton]

as has been illustrated in a couple of comments above, it's an easy experiment to try yourself.
The nearest I've found to Aspen is yellow poplar (tulipwood) or Lombardi poplar. make a half inch shaft with horn reinforcement 2" long and fit a heavy war bodkin. taper the shaft from 3/8" from the nock until you get the desired balance point, just fore of the centre. I have goose feathers here that are 9 1/2" long, plenty long enough to make 7 1/2" triangular cut fletchings, I prefer to follow the grease line so they come out swine or hogs back.
Now go out and shoot it.  does it appear slow enough for you to run alongside?
can you hit the modern clout distance of 180 Yards?  If you can clear 220 yards then there can be no doubt you would have made muster.
If not, then why not?  is it your technique?  is your bow of the requisite draw weight to get the arrow there? 
I have an 80LB bow here that when I shot an Ash shaft at a 50 gallon oil drum, the arrow merely bounced off.  the same arrow pierced the crimped end of the drum (bum shot). remember that is a double crimp, 6 thicknesses) but I was using a 110LB bow from the same distance 30 yards.

When I was training into becoming a computer network engineer, a lecturer was commenting on Norton security products "there are them that can and there are them that write books" at that time, it seemed Norton were producing as many books as there were new security threats 

[stevesjem]

Well pointed out Mike, there are those that do and then those that write books, I will refrain from commenting on what is written in that "warbow" book,quite simply because I know the truth about these none existant experiments, I was there!

But nevertheless triton is right, make up a replica arrow and see what weight bow it takes to get it 220yds not 240.
This distance is the recognized distance between the 2 butts.
So far here in the uk only a handfull of archers have managed a military weight arrow over 220yds. And all the bows were well over 120lb and only 4 people have managed this same arrow over 240yds and these bows were 140+lbs, so this fact alone should show you that an 85lb bow has no chance at all, Italian yew or not.

Just think about it, you may start to see some contradictions in books by the same author.
Cheers
Steve

[Rod]

Chris,
Ain't that the truth. Just goes to show that we should double check our sources before committing it to print.

Steve,
It would perhaps be interesting to see the head weight and %FOC included in any description of arrows as regards achieving distance.

Rod.

[bow-toxo]

AD---
We have the Tudor [not mediaeval] MR bows. What evidence would you accept ?

I think that Steve is correct here. Based on my experience I can not believe that ANY MR yew longbow with MR taper from a 1 ½” x ! ¼” handgrip would draw less than 120.pounds.

 Yards were ‘clothyards’ or ‘Tailors yards’, standardized in Richard Lionheart’s reign for measuring cloth or land and were at least as long as our yards. Then, paces were then not the later military pace but were measured between footfalls of the same foot. A 1495 source says “ the pace conteyneth 5 feet “.

Concerning bowstrings, we know that the served string was only 1/8 “ thick . Military strings were made of hemp and two spares were considered enough for a combat archer, but we can’t get the quality of hemp that was used at the time, and if we refuse to consider the historical information in my post on the subject, we wouldn’t know how to make one anyway.

 Triton—                                                                                                                                                        Clout distance in MR days was 220 yards minimum and archers of 24 years or older were forbidden to shoot at a mark of less than 11 score with the lighter clout arrow or the still lighter flight arrow. Cornish archers required to practice but exempt from overseas service shot 24 score clout. For the short range shooting Ascham mentions butts at 12 score.. But he was just a recreational shooter. !5th century butts are recorded at “13 score tailor’s yards measured with a line” In 1599 Finsbury marks were up to nearly 20 score. I think pretty heavy draw weights would have been needed.

  Words of wisdom. There are those that do, and those who write books, and there are those who do both, and  those who think that information becomes worthless if it is written down in a book?

                                                                                                   Regards,
                                                                                                        Erik

[triton]

  Words of wisdom. There are those that do, and those who write books, and there are those who do both, and  those who think that information becomes worthless if it is written down in a book?

                                                                                                   Regards,
                                                                                                        Erik

When you put what I'd said earleir with this

His examination of the MR bows he found to be in support of his approximate 100lb @ 30inch standard bow.
He write that bows he made of Italian yew around 85lb @30 when drawn to 31.5 can reach the necessary distances.

It gives my statement it's proper context.  Some books are very valuable but to suggest the MR bows were between 85-100LB proves that opinions are often written as fact and those without the necessary experience may take it as gospel.  There are also those that have a marketing agenda?

We can't get the quality of hemp for bow strings they had because.............that strain of hemp is now illegal to grow 

[stevesjem]

When you put what I'd said earleir with this

His examination of the MR bows he found to be in support of his approximate 100lb @ 30inch standard bow.
He write that bows he made of Italian yew around 85lb @30 when drawn to 31.5 can reach the necessary distances.

It gives my statement it's proper context.  Some books are very valuable but to suggest the MR bows were between 85-100LB proves that opinions are often written as fact and those without the necessary experience may take it as gospel.  There are also those that have a marketing agenda?

[/quote]

This is where reality becomes fantasy, I will say this one more time, No tests were done by this person or by anyone else with regards Italian yew at the time this book and his previous book was written, also this person has not had any Italian Yew since 2004, he may have done tests later with some low altitude swiss yew that I know he had, The latest book was written well after that. Also only 10 bows were made at that time, I had 3 of them, another friend of mine also had 2, the others were sold to various people around the country and Europe, So I re iterate no tests were done by him on these bows, Any tests that have been done with bows from this wood have been done by myself, Mark Stretton and other members of the EWBS.

I am sorry to sound like I'm having a rant, but I have had enough of people asking me about the SO CALLED TESTS I DID FOR HIS BOOKS, because I never did any, however this shows how people will read something and believe its gospel because it was in a book.

[triton]

Exactly

[Rod]

Just an aside on converting paces into yards.
Back in the 19thC there was some contention about the ranges shot accurately with large calibre rifles and at the Creedmore range there was a study of distances accounted in paces.

The conclusion was that the average for a normal walking "pace" was from 27" to 30".

Rod.

[AD]

I'd have to say that 'gospel truth' problem applies equally to all writing ...and only hope my summary of Bickerstaffe's book was as accurate as it was concise .

I take it there's a long standing difference of opinion and some falling out between two factions of bowyers/archers up in the midlands.  Shame really when you have such an enjoyable hobby in common which you could all share.  I don't want to feed the fire with questions so I'll shut up, only saying thanks to those who have explained the heavier war bow view.

Mind you the internet can also do funny things to people;  a few years ago I remember being given a link to an aquarium/fish forum where a contentious argument that went on for 40 pages eventually split the forum into two.  Having no interest in either side of the argument, it was a rather sad thread to read through.


Regards and have a good weekend - Sunday promises to be good shooting weather

[TheWildCat]

  Well this is pretty cool readin thats fer sure. Y'all make some good points. I still don't see too many archers sportin 160# bows. I know theres people who could shoot em. But I don't think their an average fer a archer though. I would really like ta see some good hard facts on these bows. I don't mind eattin a little crow.I done that plenty in my life. Another thing I guess I stumble with, is that I think of shootin as Drawin, Aiming, and shootin. I ferget there ain't too much aimin with that type a bow. Just elevation. Still I see y'alls interest in them fer sure.

[triton]

Just to reiterate and add a tiny bit:
Dr Kooi was employed to calculate the draw weights of the Mary Rose bows when they were still under secure storage.  He came up with a computer programme which worked out what the draw would be. I can't remember at the moment but I'm sure it was Dick Galloway or Ron Palmer, made bows to the same dimensions as those bows, the computer programme predictions were within a pound or two of the replicas.
IMO anyone that says the MR bows were no more than about 100LB either lacks experience or has an agenda.  If you make bows upto 100LB you're going to sell more 

[davecrocket]

Hello everyone. 
I am new and have really enjoyed reading all this.  It is highly debatable and is sometimes very frustrating trying to explain what you believe is true.  It`s a bit like debating religion.  The above is good because nobody has been rude.
Anyway, I have tillered my own pair of longbows pulling at 100 and 110lb @ 32".  I really think I know the answer to this question.  Here it is;
Given you have as many war arrows as you want and you go to battle with your longbow, kiss the kids and wife goodbye.  After about ten minutes, if you have filled your pants, then what you have in your hand is a longbow and not a warbow.

[bow-toxo]

Just an aside on converting paces into yards.
Back in the 19thC there was some contention about the ranges shot accurately with large calibre rifles and at the Creedmore range there was a study of distances accounted in paces.

The conclusion was that the average for a normal walking "pace" was from 27" to 30".

Rod.

 That is true for the 19th century military pace. The 'Roman' or 'geometric' pace of Tudor times, measured between footfalls of the same foot, was five feet.