Author Topic: what lbs makes it a warbow insted of a longbow  (Read 115001 times)

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stevesjem

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Re: what lbs makes it a warbow insted of a longbow
« Reply #60 on: March 17, 2009, 10:55:23 am »
The Archers that were aboard the MR would have been the elite, not your general archer of the time, 1st of all not all archrs were taken into the army's at that time, they were chosen for their ability, so these were the elite, also do you really think that Henry VIII would have had just general archers on his flag ship, these would have been the best there was, i'm sure.

The book in question also states I did extensive tests for him, which I didn't????????
With regards the string theory, 1st of all we don't have any idea of how the string was made and what the quality of the natural materials of the time were like, what we do have is the bows and from the extensive research done on these bows and the wood itself suggests very heavy draw weights. IMHO this string theory carries as much water as a collander.
Steve

nickf

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Re: what lbs makes it a warbow insted of a longbow
« Reply #61 on: March 17, 2009, 01:28:08 pm »
> guys, keep in mind stevesjem is one of the few guys who has acces to the real mary rose bows, and he's done alot of research on them (isn't it right?)

well steve, what drawweigths do you estimate of those bows? given the ringcount, length and thickness?

Nick

stevesjem

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Re: what lbs makes it a warbow insted of a longbow
« Reply #62 on: March 18, 2009, 05:47:14 am »
Hi Nickf
Anyone can go and have a look at the bows in the collection by prior appointment, however I have been and studied the bows very many times, I have had the opportunity to measure all of the bows, both dimensionally and for ring count, at the moment DNA tests are being done by Dr Mark Jones of the MR trust on the bows to find out where the wood originated, I have helped him by supplying him with some Altitude Italian Yew, so he can get DNA from some wood that was cut from a known bow wood area of Italy for comparison, (Someone did by the way send him some American yew for comparison), I'm not sure how that will help?

Anyway to answer your question, IMHO and after more recent research and tests and making replica bows, I believe the bows to be on average about 160lb, with some even up to the 180-190lb, maybe higher.

Steve

AD

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Re: what lbs makes it a warbow insted of a longbow
« Reply #63 on: March 18, 2009, 08:15:52 am »
Steve, I think I may have spoken to you on the phone - you gave me some good advice about arrows.  As also has Pip Bickerstaffe.

I do not have such expertise, and retain an open mind about what weight bows were. 
Perhaps knowing their bowstrings had a limited life was a trade-off archers were prepared to make in order to use very heavy bows.  They could have carried spares, maybe have fitted a newish one before a battle so it would definitely last the two dozen arrows they had chance to fire off.
I take your point about making an exact replica of a medieval bowstring, but it would be interesting to test how many times a bow of 100/120/ 140/ 160/ 180lb could be shot using a hemp/linen bowstring of 1/8" diameter before the string broke. 
Count me out though, I can barely pull my wimpish 100@28 replica   ;)

Regards

Rod

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Re: what lbs makes it a warbow insted of a longbow
« Reply #64 on: March 18, 2009, 08:36:35 am »

Looking at warbow cultures where there is a written record, we only have information where archery was an activity of the literate classes, which lets out the post Roman european bow until Gaston Phoebus' "Livre de Chasse" or Ascham.

Where the literature is extensive the median for infantry bows appears to be in the 120lb to 150lb range, somewhat less for the smaller cavalry bows, from 90lb to 120lb.
Rod.


A 'warbow' is of course a longbow, just an especially strong one. Besides those you mention we do have one earlier reference, "The Book of Roi Modus" written before the Hundred Years War, that gives the measurements of the "English bow" and its arrows, clearly a longbow.  Like other mediaeval writings it gives no details on draw weight which makes me curious to know where your information on draw weights comes from. We can of course estimate Tudor bow strengths from the laws that specify distances to be shot by nearly all adult males. Archers were the general population, not a chosen elite few. Toward the end of the Hundred Years War the ten archers for every man-at-arms were not a select few.


Thank you for the note about the Book of Roi Modus.

"Where archery was an activity of the literate classes" there is a written record of what was at different times the norm and what was , by inference, exceptional.
This leads to a conclusion that is by and large in agreement with what Steve Stratton, Mark Stretton and Chris Boyton have to say on the matter of "warbow" draw weights.
Also with the shared experience of some of those who do useful work on other styles of heavy bows and with what my own shooting experience leads me to believe to be rational and not unreasonable.

At the end of the day it is only an opinion, but hopefully a not entirely uninformed opinion.

By and large recruitment of archers was, when and where possible, quite selective.
And there were also times and conditions when recruitment was less selective, but in general, the elite would be taken where the option was available.
Men were sent home, for example, for not being capable of acheiving a desired "rate of fire".

("Rate of fire" is in inverted commas because it is a borowed term in common shooting parlance).

Given that shooting at the butts was a common form of practice, it seems likely that "rate of fire" and cast were not the only criteria.

It seems to me obvious and perfectly reasonable that a "warbow" is any kind of bow which, historically, was made for warfare and that the criteria might vary somewhat though in serious "warbow" environments the solutions reached no doubt had commonality, both in the task requirements and in the draw weights needed to eet them.
 
In this context, of course, certain types of crossbow are "warbows" but not necessarily of interest on a forum devoted to "hand drawn bows" except as an adversarial or an allied weapon.
And the list of other types of "warbow" of  composite construction is not inconsiderable.

Whilst we can say that the longbow can be a "warbow", we cannot truthfully say that "the warbow" is a longbow, only that the archetype of the English "warbow" is a longbow (or more precisely) a single stave yew longbow, but that certain other woods were acceptable substitutes.

Rod.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 09:54:31 am by Rod »

nickf

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Re: what lbs makes it a warbow insted of a longbow
« Reply #65 on: March 18, 2009, 05:25:04 pm »
thanks for your reply steve!

160#,.. that's a purty average :) Hopefully I'll get close to it when I'm 18 :P
It shouln't surprise me at all, actually. Those guys shot their bows so often... And without much bow-drawing I got to 115# pretty quickly, at my 16years of age. I imagine the 16year-olds of those days wouldn't have had problems with 120#+ , not to speak of the adults.

AD, 100#@28" isn't bad at all. But I'd advice you to go for a longer draw, say 30-32", you can draw a little heavier at that long drawlength.
and Rod, thanks for the additional info.

Nick

Offline bow-toxo

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Re: what lbs makes it a warbow insted of a longbow
« Reply #66 on: March 18, 2009, 10:08:24 pm »

Men were sent home, for example, for not being capable of acheiving a desired "rate of fire".

Whilst we can say that the longbow can be a "warbow", we cannot truthfully say that "the warbow" is a longbow, only that the archetype of the English "warbow" is a longbow (or more precisely) a single stave yew longbow, but that certain other woods were acceptable substitutes.

Rod.
[/quote]

For the word to have a recognizable meaning, I hope we can restrict the term ‘longbow’ to European bows not much wider than thick and long enough to draw at least to the ear.To me, that would include all MR bows. Perhaps you have a better definition.

While archers were nearly the entire male [and some of the female] population of mediaeval and early Tudor England, of course some were preferred. For royal bodyguards, tall strong archers were selected. For military archers there were those ‘of the first sort’, probably those placed in the front ranks of the herce, and those ‘of the second sort’. However men enlisted to serve as assistants to the surgeon were instead pulled into the shooting formations to serve as archers.

Again , I would appreciate knowing the original source for men being sent home for failing the 'rate of fire' test.

                                                                                                             Erik

Offline alanesq

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Re: what lbs makes it a warbow insted of a longbow
« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2009, 05:28:53 pm »

Hello AD

It would be nice if you could tell us something about who you are and what archery experience you have etc. as I notice you have only just joined the forum and you have not introduced yourself etc.

AD

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Re: what lbs makes it a warbow insted of a longbow
« Reply #68 on: March 20, 2009, 11:34:24 am »
A middle-aged archer, been shooting longbow for exactly a year this month, though I had two flatbows as a teenager.
I did a course at the club with my wife & daughters on recurves, but wasn't tempted to buy one(until quite recently when another member allowed me to shoot his brand new Bernadini riser).
Already own three bows, Bickerstaffe hickory/greenheart/osage/osage laminate 50lb@28(pulls to 29), Dave Cotterill hickory/yew/lemonwood 65lb@30, and the aforementioned Bickerstaffe replica warbow hickory/satinwood/osage/osage laminate which is 100lb@28 (pulls to 32" and is truly a long bow at 85" tip to tip).
The heavy bow was bought to build up my strength & shoot clout.  I think I'd settle on something around 70lb for target, while 50lb is enough for field.

I'm probably the worst archer in the club when it comes to concentration.  Shooting a Windsor on the 50lber the other week I was keeping up with the opposition at 60... until half way through the 50, sent four arrows alternately either side of the target, l, r, l, r, and just started laughing at myself.
As long as I enjoy arching...






Rod

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Re: what lbs makes it a warbow insted of a longbow
« Reply #69 on: March 23, 2009, 06:29:40 am »
Erik,
I have what seems to me to be a distinct recollection of having read it somewhere, but I'll have to trawl through the literature to see if I can find it.
If I can't then perhaps I can pretend that I only put it in there to see how long it took for you to ask for the source?  :-)

Rod.

Offline ChrisD

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Re: what lbs makes it a warbow insted of a longbow
« Reply #70 on: March 23, 2009, 06:42:32 pm »
Good luck to you both - I've read it too but when I went to search for it, I could no longer find it!! I have a horrible feeling that if it does turn up, it'll turn out to be unattrributed but passed from one relatively recent writing to the next. Hope not, but we'll see.

C

Offline TheWildCat

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Re: what lbs makes it a warbow insted of a longbow
« Reply #71 on: March 24, 2009, 11:41:05 pm »
 I have found this a very interesting read, and it appears to inspire some passion about Warbows. Thats really great. I must admit I know little about them, but I doubt that it would be common for a 16 year old to be shootin 120 pounds of bow. Not sayin that its not possible. I know it is, but I doubt that its that common, even shooting every day. I can believe there were plenty of bows in the 120 pound category, but beyond that would seem to be an uncommon occurrence. I have seen the figure 160 pounds mentioned several times. Maybe in a bow that was shot from the feet, but I just can't fathom a army of archers, sportin 160 pound bows. I know from reading that archers generally made up the bulk of armies, due to economics.
  My conception of a Warbow, based on weights would be 80 pounds and up, depending on what the individual archer could handle. I believe I read that the average archer didn't own his own bow, just the string and thus the reason for the bowyers knot. I do know that they shot very heavy poundage as archeologist have excavated and found skeletons with extensive bone damage in the shoulder areas due to this fact. If you are limiting the Warbow classification to the English style, then definitely a selfbow designed for shooting long distances.
  Again I state that I know very little about the subject, so don't get offended at my opinion. I had a friend who shot a 110 pound bow. His arms reminded me of Popeye.
"Ifin it Ain't Pork...It Ain't BBQ!!!

TheWildCat

stevesjem

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Re: what lbs makes it a warbow insted of a longbow
« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2009, 08:05:18 am »
Hi The Wildcat,
I do understand what you are saying and your reasoning, however there are a couple of things that must be taken into account, 1st of all the actual artifacts of the Mary Rose, these bows are all very substantial and I say again after making replicas from the correct wood and ring count, the minimum bow weight was 120lb.
2nd. during the medieval period archers were required to practice at the "Butts", these were mounds of earth and were shot at a range of 220yds, now we also know the arrow size, both shaft and fletchings etc, as there are over 2000 of them found on the MR, now when an arrow is made up as a replica of one of the MR arrows, Wood type Aspen, Bobtailed from 1/2" at the head to 3/8" at the nock with 7.5" Goose fletchings the  arrow weight comes in at approx 70g, now just to shoot this arrow 220yds takes a bow weight of at least 120lb, now that is at a 45 deg angle, but to shoot it accurately at the target a flatter trajectory is needed, thus a heavier bow is needed to achieve this, then take into consideration this was general archer practice not top end military archers, this should then show you what the English military archers would be using with regards bow weights.

Cheers

Steve

nickf

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Re: what lbs makes it a warbow insted of a longbow
« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2009, 04:30:36 pm »
Wildcat, I'm shooting 115# aswell. I'm 16 :D  :

no spinach arms here ;) I did quite some lifting for a year now, but I don't think I would have had to.

Thanks alot for your detailed info again, stevesjem. I highly appreciate true knowlede and facts here :D
You usually read 75 - 150pounds, but wow, if it's more like 120-190pounds, I'm really, really impressed.
And now I know I gotto do some more on my spinach arms :p
Nick

Offline Loki

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Re: what lbs makes it a warbow insted of a longbow
« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2009, 05:00:43 pm »
I shot a MR replica arrow from my 75# Bow and it only travelled about 80yds  ;D.
Durham,England