In progress elm Holmegaard

[adb]

I still believe we can all offer our opinions in a constructive manner. You may want to ask Dane why he feels discouraged. I think, for me, being told what I've just created is wrong, would certainly be discouraging. Being told how I might want to try something different next time, would be more helpful. I don't think this is about "sugar coating", it's about being mutually respectful. I don't think constructive criticism involves negative comments. I think Dane has done a decent job on a challenging tiller.

[DanaM]

 George your so very right about what constitutes a proper tiller, too many times I see folks comment that a bow isn't bending into the fades enough or
the handle is bending too much. Tiller can be very much a personal view and if the wood holds and the bow shoots well then it was a success. I believe some of us take this a bit to seriously at times. If it was all about performance I would still be shooting compounds. Each of us have our own reasons why we build bows, for some its to optimize performance for others their just happy to get a shooter, I think for the majority of us its a relaxing hobby and a way to challenge ourselves. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder eh.

If my comments were the cause for any disappontment on your part Dane, then you have my sincerest apologies my friend.

Dane don't give up building bows, that would be a shame and a great loss. You were happy with your bow until you saw some of the comments here.
No one was being mean spirited so no need to take it the wrong way, its obvious that you have talent and take pride in your workmanship as you should.
Go ahead and enjoy your bow, after all thats why you built it. Go forth and be merry eh

[John B.]

Dane, don't give up or leave. 

The Holmgaard is a controversial design (check that paleo site), and some of that sort of controversial, theoretical discussion showed up in this thread, which is semi-unrelated to your particular bow, but hey, here it is.  You inspired an interesting discussion.

Holmgaard's are a tough tiller.  I'm still working on it myself.

[Gordon]

That's a tough design - I don't think I could pull it off. I give Dane a lot of credit for trying it.

[Dane]

Hi everyone. Listen, I dont want to give an false preceptions about any of this. I do appreciate all your comments, and this is the reason this site exists, and is so valuable. If you know me, you know I am a bit emotional, but not necessarily in the way you may think. It takes me a bit of time to process information and then come up with a response or line of reasoning, and I guess I got a bit short circuited yesterday. I wasn't upset with any of you, but with myself. I took your comments to heart, Badger, and thought man, I am currupting someone with a totally wrong tiller. Arg. I have never seen anyone being told here they made a bow wrong. I get exactly what you are saying though, Badger, upon futher thought.

A long day, a six day week before that, and some nasty clients (I write resumes, and so deal with some very stressed, and sometime angry, scared clients who are out of work and running out of time), and someone being fired at work for incompetence, all contributed to how I processed your comments. And as Adam stated, I was really bummed out. I sat at work and kind of fiddled with writing assigments, and wondered how elm looks in the fireplace, and who wants my tools here, instead of turning out resumes. Dont tell my boss.

I'm feeling much better now. I have learned a lot, some of which I am not too happy about, but that is about myself, not all of you. Truth be told, if I get to make 3 bows a year, I am lucky, so many more failures and some successes are ahead of me. Part of why I thiink I gravitate toward the Holmgaard is that it is so difficult, and a challenge. the D bow doesnt seem to hold any glamour for me. That can change of course.

George, thanks. Adam, thanks. Finnish, thanks man. Everyone, thanks.

Okay, another truism. I am much better at building catapults than bows at this stage in my development. Here is my latest baby, nearly done now, a handheld machine which will have curved arms and follows the formulas set by Vitriviuan, an engineer who served under Cesear and Augustus. The brass plating is nearly done since I took these pictures. I'll share it, including video of me in a Roman getup, once I have some nice weather to cast the bronze parts so I can finish it up and get to testing. Winter weather is the big issues, as I am doing the casting outdoors and all we have is snow and sleet around here.

Have a great night, and I'll post some shots once the bow is really finished. I did work a bit on the tiller to get the inner arms bending more, but the wood seems sound all around, so I will see how long it lasts. If it beats the odds you all think it faces, hurrah. If not, there are more bows in the future.

Dane







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[Dane]

John, Gordon, thanks. Dana, I know no one was being mean. I was being hard on myself. Better that being a slacker and not caring, eh?

All of you, good night. No more pity for me. I'm feeling much better. A screwdriver sounds good about now. Stay warm and see you around.

Dane

[Hrothgar]

Dane, nice looking holmie. I had just posted a question about holmie tips; it's apparent I haven't checked out this site for a couple weeks. Also see where the debate continues over exactly what constitutes a holmegaard. Guess it will always be a little speculative since only parts of a couple originals still survive. It is hard to say if there was a set of blueprints and specs, or whether the thick non-bending outer section was only a result of a primitive man using primitive tools and scrapers, and naturally lifting the scraper up as he pulled it towards himself and the end of the bow limb. Either way, when we see one we know it ain't a longbow and it ain't a flatbow.
 Nice job, Philip

[adb]

Hey, Dane

Don't be so hard on yourself. You've made a very nice bow. Enjoy it! Make another.

Cheers.

[Badger]

Dane, on the plus side I would imagine your bow shoots very well just as it is. I tend to crowd my tillers as much as I can get away with. Very seldom do we actually optimize a bow to it's fullest we just do the best we can. Bow making is a learning process, just like any other trade, we start off as an apprentice of sorts and depending on how much we put into it advance as we go, some advance slow some fast, no biggy, the fun is in making the bows. When you look at the front view of a bow it will tell you the tiller shape it wants. Just something to think about as you are learning. Don't get discouraged dude or feel for one minute you don't belong here. We are all brothers here and try to help one another. We often don't agree on everything and thats part of the fun also. I make a lot of bows but have never considerd myself to be a master at tillering, I finaly just got to where I know what works and don't even try to be perfect anymore. Here is something to think about that may take you awhile to digest but just think about it while making bows and it will eventually start to make sense. The thickness of the wood determines how far it can bend without breaking or taking set, the width of the wood determines how far it will bend. The idea is to try and keep the stresses in the limb as equal as you can, For instance on a pyramid bow you would have straight lines from the fades to the tips, the bow would be the same thickness all the way down the limb and the width would allow it to form a nice circular tiller, If your limbs are straight on the sides say 2/3 the way down this would indicate a bow that should be tillered elypticaly, in other words the bend would gradually increase until the width started to taper and would require the thickness to be be tapered on this straight part of the limb as well. Any time you rough out a bow just study the front view and it will tell you just the tiller it is looking for. Hope to see more of your work on here soon, Steve

[Marc St Louis]

Nice bow.  The working portion of the bow is short but they are bending smoothly.  Well done

[nickf]

If I may give you some humble advice,
those stiff outer limbs look really wide, so the good effect of them is lost. Narrowing them would give alot more power.
since those limbs bend in a really short range, you can make them narrow them a little closer to the handle. It's like the fades on a rigid-handle bow, if you start making the fades thicker and keep the limbs wide, and just when the handle reaches it's deepest point, the handle starts to narrow up. This way you lose some inches of usefull bending-place, if you wan't to keep those places stiffer, you can narrow the handle sooner.

hope you got what I mean, being dutch it isn't really easy to say what you want to in english :p

glad you're back to bowmaking!!

Nick

[majsnuff]

Dane, I too have been working on a Holmie. I was glad to see your front view pic, your outer limbs are a bit wider than mine but then I am having problems with the "lever" portion wanting to flex sideways. I have not yet piked them but I believe this to be my only remaining option.

A question for you. Did you de-crown the stave? I did not initialy, and lifted a splinter in the handle. Rasping and filing the splinter down then carring that flat all the way out to the tips. I lost 5lb by doing this, but the bow still shoots well. Mine is made of Service Berry and is the second Holmie I have built, the first was a Vine-maple two peice take down.

Great job on your bow. I look forward to seing what you use for finish as I am thinking of wax or lard.

[ricktrojanowski]

Dane
I know nothing about Holmegaard bows so I will not comment on the tiller.  However don't get discouraged.  Sometimes doing something that you love to do can suck at times.     Keep up the good work.  I am looking forward to seeing the finished product.  And in my opinion it is looking good so far.

[Dane]

Thanks, Marc, Rick, Majsnuff, and Nick (Holland? Welcome to the site, and your English is better than mine! I understand exactly what you are saying, and will keep that in mind for the next bow of this style).

I ended up deciding to retiller the bow, probably should have left it alone, though. It lost 15 pounds, and now shoots at a glorious 25-26 lbs. at 27" draw. I just put on the last coat of Truoil last night, and it is a pretty thing. I'll post pictures later today (new camera, so I have to download the software, etc).

This was a great learning experience, as are all bows. Being a glutton for punishment, I have started a sapling bow with tons of character (i.e. knots).

Majsnuff, no, I didn't decrown it, but didnt need to. It is elm, and the stave was wide enough that I simply removed the bark and left the surface alone.

Rick, if we both make it to the next Connecticut primitive gathering, I'll bring this bow. You will no doubt feel very strong pulling on this bow,

Dane

[nickf]

thanks dane!
you might consider piking and heattreating to compensate with the lost drawweight. you can get over 10pounds back if you do this...

goodluck on your sapling bow! I would love to see some pics, sapling bows are just awesome

greetings, Nick