double horn laminate?

[thegreatwhale]

new the PA looking into bow building in addition to blacksmithing.
i was just curious if anyone has ever glued horn to itself before attaching it to the belly of the bow? so instead if it being 1/8" it being 1/4", how much would that increase the poundage? will it actually stick to itself?
much appreciation to any wisdom on the matter
kegan

[BowEd]

Never needed to try that because I usually will get a good 3/16" thickness from one lamination.One quarter inch thick horn would be for a very powerful into the 150# plus catagory if your talking a horn,sinew,wood horn bow.That extra 1/8" thickness would increase it another 20 to 30 pounds or more depending on resting profile of the bow.I hav'nt done it but imagine it is possible.I would V groove the two lams together inter locking wise though and with hide glue.A lot of work if you see what I mean.An all horn bow should be possible though but it would have to have sinew on it's back.For that a person can usually get the thickness without laminating the horn together from one horn.I'm referring to gemsbok horn.Just my experience and thoughts.Maybe someone else can comment on this subject too.

[thegreatwhale]

i will be using gemsbok horn for the belly, and that was the goal with the double laminate, i have been reading about how many of the steppes people over the centuries had war bows in the #90-#160 range and even though i can't currently pull a #160 i wouldn't mind getting something in the #115-130 range. But if i don't want to spend ages applying sinew and waiting for it to cure i figure double horn could be very simple and strong!
i was also curious if i were to weave sinew into a fabric that was able to cover the whole back of the bow and it being essentially a continuous strand on the back would that provide better or stronger support? possibly increase the poundage just by having it woven? maybe reduce how it would slacken over time of use? i'm definitely just trying to absorb as much information and wisdom from the people who have experience, and appreciate the input!

[blackhawk]

Have you made any kind of bows before? If not I'd get some of the basics down first and make some more simpler designed wooden bows..a horn bow build is very complex and time consuming and the apex of bowyering....a hard task even for someone who has built quite a few wooden bows already...and don't try to be making such heavy weights at first with any kind of bow...shoot for lighter weights and learn how to tiller....trying to make such weights needs PERFECT everything,and flawless prepping(gluing of joints n sinew),otherwise it'll come undone in your face and could result in some serious injury....learn to crawl before ya can walk,and then learn to walk well before ya run...just my two cents

[thegreatwhale]

where is the best place to begin with becoming a bowyer? are there certain books i should be reading as i build things? how do i learn about how the grain works and how to identify weak spots? how do you really get into the world of bow making?

[nathan elliot]

Friend that place is here . Read, make and learn. Lots of good build alongs to follow. Get yourself a stave or board and follow the steps. Simple, ish. 

[Don Case]

where is the best place to begin with becoming a bowyer? are there certain books i should be reading as i build things? how do i learn about how the grain works and how to identify weak spots? how do you really get into the world of bow making?

You could do what I'm doing. Go here http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/board,6.0.html
Start at page 23 and work your way forward.
Also Here   http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/gripping-time.html

Start in 2010 and work forward.   

Lotsa good stuff.

Don

[Gus]

Start with a Board Bow.

And pick up the four volume set of The Traditional Bowyer's Bible.
Lot of good info there.

On top of all that...
Horn does not withstand Tension Loads well, but shines under a Compression Load.
That is why you need the Sinew, which is designed to live and work under a tension load.

Welcome Aboard.
You can do an Advanced Search for Board Bow in the "HowTo's and Build-a-longs" section you will find a lot of instruction.
If you get stuck bring it to the board.
With Photos covering your question, if at all possible.
The Great Folks here love to Problem Solve, and Photos are Golden... 

-gus

[Weylin]

In addition to getting info here on PA I recommend trying to find a bowyer in your area that you can meet with face to face. That's how I learned and it was extremely valuable to me. Not only did I learn to make bows much faster than i would have fumbling around on my own but I also made some great friends. What area do you live in? chances are there's someone on this site that lives near you and would be willing to help in some capacity.

I agree that making a 100#+ horn sinew composite for your first bow is about the worst possible plan. I say find someone near you that would trade or a sell a seasoned stave to you or buy a board if that doesn't work and then make a simple flat bow design at a reasonable weight. We can help you come up with a plan depending on what you end up with for wood.

Here's a link to my first bow. I'm not putting it here to show off by any means. I had a lot of help on this bow from master bowyers in my area like Gordon Ferlitsch and John Strunk. It just shows what even a doofus like me can pull off with a good design and a lot of help. It's a simple pyramid style hickory flat bow but it shoots hard and fast. I'll be taking it elk hunting with me this year. http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,31276.msg414288.html#msg414288

[thegreatwhale]

well getting with someone at this point in time who knows the craft in my area is going to be near impossible considering i'm in Afghanistan currently and wont be home for several months, but i'm stationed in NC, jacksonville area for future reference. and i also apologize that i can't see many pics on this site due to how shabby the internet is, granted i'm very thankful to have it at all, but it'll be a while till i can see anything.
i really appreciate all the feedback from everyone and i will probably be here a while just studying and learning from anyone and everyone, i welcome any and all suggestions that anyone is willing to input.

[BowEd]

thegreatwhale.....yes welcome to the PA site bud.Glad to hear you have high ambitions.This bow making some people take to it like a duck to water and some have to struggle but most end up somewhere inbetween.These ideas you have sound simple to you but they have consequences in difficulty.Learning the basics is best first.Believe me you will be thrilled at just getting an old stick of wood to shoot an arrow at first then you can continue to try more difficult things.The Bowyer Book Series is mostly what I started with and the friends on this site.
The interweaving of fabric with sinew will take too much set.Your fabric will set then your not enough sinew wo'nt be able to hold it up either and take a set.It will protect the heck out of the back of a bow to stop splinters etc. but nothing to keep reflex and higher performance.There is a give and take,a price to pay for each short cut a person takes in this bow building.
BTW thank you for your service in the armed forces so that I can keep enjoying my privileges here.

[Gus]

However... On the Nother Hand...

If you are ded set on a "Just a Horn" Bow...
You might consider one of these:

http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,38801.0.html

You would have to search out the Perfect set of Gemsbock Horns for the task.
But it can be done...
Took me about a year to find my set of horns...
Hoping to start the bow this year...

By the way.
Thank You For Your Service.

You'll also find a bunch of us old Ex Military Farts on this Forum...
Always happy to help.

-gus
(Army)

[thegreatwhale]

as far as the interweaving of fabric goes i meant more along the lines of making a rough fabric out of sinew entirely, from what i've read people tend to like using backstrap sinew for two reasons, first its already more of a stand and doesn't take as much work to get it into a usable state, but also that its longer, the benefit seeming that the longer the sinew is the more continuity it will have adding strength. but i very well could be misunderstanding what i'm reading (its been known to happen many times over the years) but that is why i am asking the questions =]

i'm more than willing to start slow and work my way until i can make the bow of my dreams, but then i have questions about where to get wood? if i go and cut down a tree, what is the best way to keep it from checking the whole thing? would i split/ cut it into staves then find a way to prevent it from happening? what part of the tree is best to work from? which way should the grain be in regards to the way the bow is drawn?

at this point in time the only bow i have is a fiberglass backed hickory longbow #40 at 28" from rudderbows that i got probably near 8 years ago...

I'm glad to serve, i'm glad to hear there are many ex-military here, good to know i'm not alone =]