Author Topic: Natural Composite arrowshafts?  (Read 2095 times)

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Offline Thesquirrelslinger

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Natural Composite arrowshafts?
« on: April 12, 2013, 08:38:05 pm »
I have messed around with natural composites before, but not on this scale.
I would like to try to attempt to make jute fiber-hideglue composite arrowshafts. A lot of work, but no straightening required:)
Plus I can shoot them off my recurve.
Here is my plan- 3/32 inch thick walls, jute fiber with a hide-glue matrix. When dry will become 1/16, as HG shrinks. HG is my pick of choice because its cheap(this is gonna use a TON of glue) and its strong, and its easy to clean up.
Here is the plan- wrap around a 3/16 steel rod, which is greased, and 36 inches long. Once dry, slide off.
If this goes well, I will have a highly unique item to trade.
I did a ton of research on composites, fiber-reinforced materials, fibers, and related stuff.
I learned that carbon fiber is stronger but less elastic than glass, which is probably why we do not see many fibergl@$$ bows...sorry for using the F word...
-Squirrel
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

Offline sonny

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Re: Natural Composite arrowshafts?
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2013, 09:14:31 pm »
hide glue is too brittle for such an application.
Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Offline Josh B

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Re: Natural Composite arrowshafts?
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2013, 09:22:33 pm »
Interesting concept slinger.  I think they will be tough to get a consistent wall thickness, but I'm just guessing on that account.  I would also recommend waxing your rod with something like floor paste wax as opposed to greasing it. The grease would likely soak into your matrix and compromise it.  Even then it might be tough to get your core mold out.  I imagine the hide glue would shrink down and form a press fit to the rod.  A tiny wooden or bamboo Dowell used as a permanent core might be a better option.  As far as the staying straight part, probably not so much.  As you know, hide glue is very susceptible to moisture.  I suspect that even with the best sealer in the world, the hide glue is going to relax and constrict based on humidity.  That would be pretty prone to warpage I'm guessing.  As I said, I'm just guessing on all that as I've never tried it.  With so many natural shaft options, I never considered trying to reinvent the carbon shaft.  I also despise making arrows so I tend to take the easiest route possible.  Good luck with your experimentation.  I am a bit baffled about the fiberglass bow comment though. Josh

Offline Thesquirrelslinger

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Re: Natural Composite arrowshafts?
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2013, 10:21:25 pm »
Interesting concept slinger.... I am a bit baffled about the fiberglass bow comment though. Josh
I might use TB 2 instead, I have gotten that from some other people I asked.

On here, Fibergl@$$ is sort of a curse-word... or so it seems according to other people's posts.
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

Offline sleek

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Re: Natural Composite arrowshafts?
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2013, 03:09:33 am »
I know a little bit about composites. Your idea has potential but not with hide glue. Now, I am being serious kid, your thinking along the right track and I am positive you can make a good product of this, but its not anywhere NEAR as easy as you think.

First off, choose a better glue. Folks dont expect arrows to last forever, expect them to break, but never expect them to fail due to materials. Resins are the best man made choice. I can not think of a natural glue that will work here.

Second, you will need your fibers to run lengthwise the entire arrow shaft. Any fibers that do not will cause breakage. The fibers MUST follow the lines of the direction of stress.

You must have consistency. Your wall thickness must be exact all the way down the shaft. Any spot to thin will cause breakage or irregular paradox and flight. Your fibers must also be tightly lined up against each other, with the glue being only a bonder, not a void filler.

You will need a way to press the fiber resin matrix firmly while it cures. This is often done with a vacuum bag.

You will need to do all this work before your resin sets up and flashes. You can slow your resin down and give yourself time by using a slow cure mix, and by doing it in the cold. You can also make a pre preg. This is done by soaking the fibers in epoxy, then freezing them until you are ready to use them. Pre preg at -70 degrees is usually good for several months.

The best process I can think of to do this is lay your fibers out perfectly straight on a resin soaked wax paper flat mat. Have them aligned so they are touching, but not piling on top each other. Then freeze these sheets after the fibers have become completely impregnated with the resin.
Remove the now frozen prepreg sheets and stack them to a desired thickness, and press them together with a flat board and heavy weight. This squeezes out the excessive resins. You need to make certain your fibers never move during this process.  After the flash off has started, and the prepreg sheets are still very tacky, you will need to roll them onto your dowel form, and use a vacuum bag to apply the needed pressure to the fiber matrix to keep them EXACTLY in shape and pressed together enough to ensure the fibers bond to each other and not fibers to a glue filled void.

Some experimentation may be needed to find appropriate wall thickness to get the spine you want. I would say use other materials too, like the fibers from very stringy plants. Celery stalks, asparagus would be a perfect one, carrots, any stringy vegetable.

Anyways, its a long post, but, having worked composites in the aviation industry, I know a little bit about them. The process is simple. The hard part is making your prepreg matrix. Good luck and post what you do regardless of what it is!

Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline Thesquirrelslinger

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Re: Natural Composite arrowshafts?
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2013, 01:41:45 pm »
I know a little bit about composites. Your idea has potential but not with hide glue. Now, I am being serious kid, your thinking along the right track and I am positive you can make a good product of this, but its not anywhere NEAR as easy as you think.

First off, choose a better glue. Folks dont expect arrows to last forever, expect them to break, but never expect them to fail due to materials. Resins are the best man made choice. I can not think of a natural glue that will work here.

Second, you will need your fibers to run lengthwise the entire arrow shaft. Any fibers that do not will cause breakage. The fibers MUST follow the lines of the direction of stress.

You must have consistency. Your wall thickness must be exact all the way down the shaft. Any spot to thin will cause breakage or irregular paradox and flight. Your fibers must also be tightly lined up against each other, with the glue being only a bonder, not a void filler.

You will need a way to press the fiber resin matrix firmly while it cures. This is often done with a vacuum bag.

You will need to do all this work before your resin sets up and flashes. You can slow your resin down and give yourself time by using a slow cure mix, and by doing it in the cold. You can also make a pre preg. This is done by soaking the fibers in epoxy, then freezing them until you are ready to use them. Pre preg at -70 degrees is usually good for several months.

The best process I can think of to do this is lay your fibers out perfectly straight on a resin soaked wax paper flat mat. Have them aligned so they are touching, but not piling on top each other. Then freeze these sheets after the fibers have become completely impregnated with the resin.
Remove the now frozen prepreg sheets and stack them to a desired thickness, and press them together with a flat board and heavy weight. This squeezes out the excessive resins. You need to make certain your fibers never move during this process.  After the flash off has started, and the prepreg sheets are still very tacky, you will need to roll them onto your dowel form, and use a vacuum bag to apply the needed pressure to the fiber matrix to keep them EXACTLY in shape and pressed together enough to ensure the fibers bond to each other and not fibers to a glue filled void.

Some experimentation may be needed to find appropriate wall thickness to get the spine you want. I would say use other materials too, like the fibers from very stringy plants. Celery stalks, asparagus would be a perfect one, carrots, any stringy vegetable.

Anyways, its a long post, but, having worked composites in the aviation industry, I know a little bit about them. The process is simple. The hard part is making your prepreg matrix. Good luck and post what you do regardless of what it is!
Resin is completly out of the question, except... would casting epoxy work? its pretty strong.
They are rather on the expensive side.  Casting epoxy is not super $$$, and its pretty dang strong. I am most likely gonna use these as flight arrows... perhaps.. Question- What about collapsing? I am worried if I make them hollow...
So sort of just lay the fibers by hand on resin-covered paper, then wrap? So casting-epoxy soaked fiber, then carefully lay flat and wrap? so the fibers have to be at least the length of the arrow I am hoping for...
Here is what I kinda want to do- people ask me what the heck are those made from(this is at a modern shoot)? And i can answer natural composite, and i get to explain what the heck they are and get people thinking about wooden bows and arrows. Jute composite is (hopefully) nature's carbon fiber. If this works well, I might even be able to build a business out of it.
-Squirrel
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

Offline Josh B

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Re: Natural Composite arrowshafts?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2013, 02:13:32 pm »
What I'm baffled about slinger, is you said that you don't see many fiberglass bows.  About the only place that statement holds true is in the bow section of PA.  Not because of inferior properties, but because its not a natural material.  I think it can be safely said that a vast majority of traditional bows nowadays are indeed fiberglass.  That's the part of your post I was baffled by.  As far as nature's carbon goes, surely cane grows in your part of Kentucky.  If so, you already have natures carbon shaft. ;)  As I said before, good luck young man.  Josh

Offline Thesquirrelslinger

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Re: Natural Composite arrowshafts?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2013, 06:25:55 pm »
What I'm baffled about slinger, is you said that you don't see many fiberglass bows.  About the only place that statement holds true is in the bow section of PA.  Not because of inferior properties, but because its not a natural material.  I think it can be safely said that a vast majority of traditional bows nowadays are indeed fiberglass.  That's the part of your post I was baffled by.  As far as nature's carbon goes, surely cane grows in your part of Kentucky.  If so, you already have natures carbon shaft. ;)  As I said before, good luck young man.  Josh
Cane is HEAVY. Durable, Tough, and strong, but HEAVY for making super-light flight arrows. I want to prove that a fine, very light, very fast arrow can be made from natural materials. And yes, I was talking about Primitive Archer.
I cannot get special arrow bamboo or any other super-light arrow things...
and Cane is stronger than carbon, I can vouch for that.  I break more carbons than anything else, but pretty much all I shoot is carbon and cane. Funny how I have 3 carbons left and 10 canes left from 12 of each around Christmas... The canes get far more abuse too. Usually they are my stump-shooting arrows:) Carbons are for long-range target, with a light weight bow.... mostly cause my friends get ticked when I use cane too much.
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

Offline Josh B

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Re: Natural Composite arrowshafts?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2013, 06:45:42 pm »
Don't take this as an attempt to discourage your endevour, this is a just to let you know bit.  If you are looking for another option for super light weight natural shaft, you might try phragmites with hardwood foreshaft.  You can get some pretty good spine and about half the weight of cane.  Coincidentally, they'll be about half as durable as well.  But if were talking flight shooting,  that's not much of an issue.  I used to use them a lot, but I am getting lazy about making arrows so I have went to tougher shafts.  I'll try to find a pic of some I've made. Josh

Offline Josh B

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Re: Natural Composite arrowshafts?
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2013, 08:52:07 pm »
Here's a link to a phragmites arrow I made a while back. http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,31593.msg417820.html#msg417820   It was about 290 gr, but spined around 50#.  Like I said pretty stiff for the weight.  Just another option to consider.  Josh