Author Topic: knox glue  (Read 2900 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mmattockx

  • Member
  • Posts: 948
Re: knox glue
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2021, 01:13:06 pm »
Thanks, Mark.  So, if it does start to set up, I can just rub a little warm water on it with my finger and that will re-liquify it enough to get the hide on? 

You will see once you start working with it, but the glue doesn't set in the conventional sense and can easily be softened up again with some more glue/water or gentle heat as PatM suggests. I found it very easy to work with and much less messy than conventional glues where you end up with glue everywhere. This was easy to manage and easy to wipe up once done.


Mark

Offline JW_Halverson

  • Member
  • Posts: 11,881
Re: knox glue
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2021, 01:28:51 pm »
Sizing the bow is an easy procedure, there is no need to "build up" layers. That's just unnecessary tom-foolery. 24 hours between coats means the initial coat is significantly dried out and will act as a barrier to the next layer. Every additional layer has to fully re-wet the prior layer if you want it to "soak in". Lightly sand with a coarser sandpaper (100-120 grit) parallel to the grain, brush on the warm hide glue and let it sit while you rehydrate the snake skins. A finely sanded surface provides less for the glue to grip onto, so a little roughness does not hurt. If you have used any oils or fats on the wood while heat treating, you are going to need to spend time scrubbing it out of the surface with Dawn dish soap and/or acetone. Oils and glues generally do not mix.

Water that is just warm to the touch will wet the skins in ten or 15 minutes. I use an old bath towel to lay out the skins, then I fold the towel over them and press to soak up excess surface moisture.

Paint the snake skins with your hide glue, and lay then on the limbs. They are gonna slide around like snot on a hot greasy skillet, so wrap them with a little rubber band on the handle end. Proceed to gently massage the air bubbles and any excess glue out toward the tips and off the edge of the bow.

Having a bucket of warm water with a tiny bit of dish soap and a bunch of extra towels is handy because you are gonna get sticky. When you find your hands getting gummed up, slosh them in the warm water and wipe dry, repeat as necessary.

Don't hurry, because that always messes things up. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. If you find that the glue has gelled , don't worry. It has only gelled, not cured! A hair dryer on a low setting will un-gell the glue, and if you are afraid that it is drying out the snake skin, dab it with a damp sponge wetted in warm water.
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline HanibalLecter(InnerSmile)

  • Member
  • Posts: 48
Re: knox glue
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2021, 02:56:11 pm »
Sizing the bow is an easy procedure, there is no need to "build up" layers. That's just unnecessary tom-foolery.


Ok, but did you hear what the professionals are doing?

https://exarc.net/issue-2017-2/at/modern-reproduction-mongol-era-bow-based-historical-facts-and-ancient-technology-research


Quote
After a dry fit, the wood and horn were lightly scored and given around 30 coats of very thin fish glue.

Layering is the definition of sizing. If you're not penetrating mm deep in to the wood you're not sizing.


 
Quote
24 hours between coats means the initial coat is significantly dried out and will act as a barrier to the next layer.


0.5-5% glue (the typical sizing concentration isn't going to form a coat. It's going to seep down in to the pores of the wood. If you're forming coats on the surface of the wood with just one application, you're not sizing the wood. You're just slathering glue on the surface.


Quote
Every additional layer has to fully re-wet the prior layer if you want it to "soak in".


Which they of course will, if you're using the appropriate 0.5-5% glue solution



Offline Yooper Bowyer

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,115
  • formerly Tradcraftsman
Re: knox glue
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2021, 05:17:52 pm »
I think you are right as far as gluing together horn bows Hannibal, but this is a rawhide backed hickory longbow.

Horn bows require much better gluing because they are strained much more.  Also, according to TBB, hide glue sticks well to wood and rawhide/sinew because it can soak into wood, and it is chemically related to rawhide.  However, it has no such advantage with horn, thus more glue and better seizing is needed.

Offline Morgan

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,028
Re: knox glue
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2021, 09:28:51 pm »
I have wondered if hydrating the hide in a thin glue would have any benefit over hydrating in just water? My thought process was more about TB III thinking it may impart some waterproofing to the hide, but even with hide glue, if your glue was as thick as it could be and still hydrate the skin, I would think it would guarantee a complete glue surface. May be a silly thought, but one I had none the less.

Offline PatM

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,737
Re: knox glue
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2021, 09:02:47 am »
JW, " Tom foolery"    I see what you did there.

Offline JW_Halverson

  • Member
  • Posts: 11,881
Re: knox glue
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2021, 10:12:05 am »
Sizing the bow is an easy procedure, there is no need to "build up" layers. That's just unnecessary tom-foolery.


Ok, but did you hear what the professionals are doing?

https://exarc.net/issue-2017-2/at/modern-reproduction-mongol-era-bow-based-historical-facts-and-ancient-technology-research


Quote
After a dry fit, the wood and horn were lightly scored and given around 30 coats of very thin fish glue.

Layering is the definition of sizing. If you're not penetrating mm deep in to the wood you're not sizing.


 
Quote
24 hours between coats means the initial coat is significantly dried out and will act as a barrier to the next layer.


0.5-5% glue (the typical sizing concentration isn't going to form a coat. It's going to seep down in to the pores of the wood. If you're forming coats on the surface of the wood with just one application, you're not sizing the wood. You're just slathering glue on the surface.


Quote
Every additional layer has to fully re-wet the prior layer if you want it to "soak in".


Which they of course will, if you're using the appropriate 0.5-5% glue solution

I know more actual professionals making bows on this site that do not.

Post YOUR work.

My statement stands.
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline WhistlingBadger

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,655
  • Future Expert
Re: knox glue
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2021, 10:45:50 am »
OK, thanks for the info, guys.  Got it done!  I'll start a new thread with some further questions.  I appreciate the help!

T
Thomas
Lander, Wyoming
"The trail is the thing, not the end of the trail.
Travel too fast, and you miss all you are traveling for."
~Louis L'Amour