First attempt build a long !

[Stick Bender]

With the croaker glue I'm using it like you said to prolong gel time I do most of my work in the winter months ,making these bows can be a daunting task if you never did one but they are a heck of a lot of fun to make ,but with all due respect to all here why is Ed's bows capable of the speeds that he is getting I know he goes out of his way to publish honest real speeds , when this type of composite long bow goes against a lot of doctrine ?  I'm just trying to open a honest topic about it ,not be a smart ass but with this type of design and the thinner horn longer working limb strategically placed sinew & mass it seems to work ,certainly above self bow and some glass bow performance I know from my meger exsperience there is always a trade off with varying designs , Mike I know you have made a heck of a lot of bows so your input would be appreciated , the interesting thing about this type of long bow composite is there is actually some historical reference to it found in Russia, I'm just trying to wrap my brain around the concepts I know Adam talked about efficientcie of the different designs  and why shorter bows are more efficient I don't know maybe the bow would be faster shorter with less working limb but wouldn't I give up field user friendliness & stability ?

[Stick Bender]

Well this is where Im ending the week end bow work needs some time to think out the design , but here would be the ruff layout at 62TTT that would give me aprox including the 2 3/4 static fades 12 inches of static it doesent seem ballanced to me when I look at it the other 2 pics are a 62TTT & 58 TTT static comparison the block is the limb cut off for the shorter both limbs would have around 17 in. Working horn if you subtract the static fades that includes the handle fades, thanks all for the input Im going to give it some thought for a few days.

[Stick Bender]

62 TTT

[Stick Bender]

58 TTT

[Stick Bender]

Mike I will recheck the lay out  the  stave was sawn from the supplier it did not follow the grain so I put the center line accross the apex of the crown some of that is optical with the phone camera But I will recheck it I'm plaing on steaming the recurves in at the tips and inducing limb reflex at the time of horn glue up and after sinew hoping for a total of 10 in.  Total reflex I'm sticking to the original plan of 58 TTT I decided , I might thin the horn slightly and reduce sinew to 1000 grain insted of 1100 to slightly reduce draw weight instead of lengthening the limbs or deal with the exstra draw weight

[davidjw]

Looks like a great project, and I am thoroughly enjoying the build along, thanks for putting it up.  In my humble opinion, I would get the core bent to shape before proceeding with any more layout, as the centerline might change after bending.  Then I would draw the centerline as Mike suggested, on a flat surface with a spacer block, and do the layout off that.  Also I would bend it to shape as thick as the thickest part of the final bow, this will help minimize twist during the horn glue up.
I wouldn't shy away from going for 58" ttt if stability is the main concern.  I've naver made a horn bow longer than 48" ntn, and I am comfortable stringing most of my bows in the field and dragging them through the woods. Once they are tillered and tamed, their behavior becomes quite predictable (unless, perhaps, they are left unused for months, then they may begin to revert to their old ways).  I almost always use the korean stringing methods, both sitting and standing variations, the standing method is easier with longer bows.
I look forward to seeing your progress!

[Stick Bender]

Thanks for joining in here Dave first off I should call it a bumble along  never having done it Before I thought it might help others on the side lines that never did it to see all the trials and tribulations it takes ,on this design the only bending on the core is the recurves the remainder of the the core/horn reflex is put on at horn glue up in a perry type fashion and the rest from sinew cure I was planning after I recheck the lay out  is to start thinning the stave to the static thickness dimension and bend the hooks prior to thickness tapering the limbs I was leaving the last third wide tell the hooks are done . I'm basically trying replicate for the most part BowEds prodigy bow !

[Stick Bender]

Ok Mike thanks the stave is flattened I meant I followed the crown on the end view of the flat back the grain under the flat back I will hopefully get some time next week end to process the core , going to be busy with work over the next couple of weeks !

[BowEd]

Perry reflexing is probably a poor choice of words inducing this reflex.Not the same as reverse bracing.I've made a bunch of these bows.At least 6 without any failure.4 different woods also.Tips are flipped on them all.Some more than others.Reflex induced at stages letting sinew gel and even cure a few days between applications.The sinew being put on crowned takes care of any poisene effect the back may have during full draw.Getting the most out of the sinew so to speak.No delamination problems.Types of applications explained properly clear up misunderstandings.Used the back for the sinew too.Horn on the inside of core too.No problems.Pre tapered core and horn glued together with no twisting problems with core just braced and tips aligned before horn is added.
This will be low stressed intermediate type bow between long and short to get 2 things done I gather from Ritch.More stability and accuracy from the added length compared to a turkish horn and lots of kept reflex with light set back outer tips for speed with a very much lowered mass weight type bow yet way under the reccommended mass weight on an all wood bow of this profile.The reason for it's outstanding fps showings besides design and tillering.I still would'nt call it a holmgaard really either.Some people I guess can shoot really short bows accurately maybe at the range but hunting is a completely different ball game.You are'nt shooting in any comfortable position as at a range and sometimes there is something about a moving wild animal that puts their mind set into a shaky in accurate mess.I guess practicing is the key here but I can't seem to get the hang of it.Too fidgity.Longer bows have always been more accurate and dependable in that department for hunting for me speaking from lots of experience.Guess it's a personal thing.
Anyway all I can say is that not one of the bows I've made in this way has failed from a construction type flaw and I know that sometimes through inquiring we all hear something we don't want to hear as far as advice.I wish sometimes people would put way all these hard line scare tactics to new bow makers without full explanations for their statements.I realize there are things to be aware of but stating that something wo'nt work when it does is incorrect.Could be lack of info and understanding here also.

[Stick Bender]

Yes it was a poor choice of words on my part I meant the horn is applied and secured with rubber band type clamp,Smooth on  and then put on the form to induce the reflex during cure the form will 8 in reflexed In hopes of keeping 5-6 in. Of core/horn reflex prior to sinew this style bow can be confusing in it's idenity in the sense it sort of a Asian/Amercan Indian/moderen fusion hunting type bow for lack of better words...lol The details are in Ed's  Prodigy thread below I'm just trying to replicate it's construction more or less , all the different thoughts are appreciated as I would like to make a Magyar bow in the future with more traditional construction !

[Stick Bender]

Here is a bow of similar design found in the Ural mountains of Russia #3 note how the belly core is flat and the horn rounded the others are American Indian west region bows not a lot is known about the Ural bow other then it was comon in the area !

[Stick Bender]

Your right Mike it's hard to make all your points and come accross on the right note, I have learned every thing about making bows threw correspondence & reading and school of hard knocks...lol so interpreting thoughts from people via words is tuff or exspressing what your trying to accomplish doesent always come accross right , and there is no dought the old ways are superior and more work intensive I know that , That's why I choose this design not trying to short cut or I'm not a lazy person I just have very little time for bows so any thing I can do to simplifie or speed my proseses I do whith the caveat not effecting performance for the design that's why I choose this design over a more traditional one I was  originaly going to make a form, fire hose system to put the horn on & hot box like a glass bow but decided not to,all though bet it would work  I don't exspect my bow will be perfect on my first one fore sure I'm just trying to get a solid hunting bow threw non traditional methods using mostly natural material , I know Adam used smooth on , on some bows to ! But a lot is learned from the old ways & the old material and I'm going to try one like that in the future.

[BowEd]

Mike...So to talk sensibly about the dynamics of limb strain you don't think by crowning the sinew that it helps with the poison effect and make the sinew more efficient?Soild thinking is behind that too and stated in Adams' book.I totally realize Adam Karpowicz investigated and worked out more things about cultural horn bows than I ever have or will.
The bow Ritch wants to make the way he wants to there will hold up IMHO.Speaking within the context of this design.If not every sinewed self bow would be delaminating and blowing apart.There is'nt all that much strain on that design.With your shorter more extremely tight bending type cultural horn bow I can definitely see the reasons why.From what I've read it's for steam bending reasons the exchange of back to belly orientation use.
A regular cultural type horn bow is a completely different animal then what Ritch is trying to make.Context crossing of construction statements should'nt be confused here.To me it's all about the ending thickness for draw poundage no matter what way it is done.
I can definitely see why starting out with a thicker core before rope wrapping the horn onto the core will reduce most if any twisting occuring on turkish horn bows.Then reducing core thickness to accept thickness of sinew to get final thoughtof thickness.This is not the case here with the bow that Ritch is constructing.