Osage Sap Wood

[okie64]

Heres a link to the limbo I was referring to.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,36278.msg477374.html#msg477374

[Josh Shuck]

I just went back to my TBB volume 1 and it describes the exact same failure that both of my friends bows suffered.  Not saying it can't be done...but I personally wouldn't take the chance. 

"I began to hear the tell tale tick from each new crack as it appeared on the sapwood back.  The failures were both longitudinal and transverse failures that are unheard of in an all hardwood back.  At any rate, one warm afternoon the bow suffered a violent death at full draw."

What the common denominator is, I don't know.  Decay, design, variation in density, humidity???  I do know that all hardwood is pretty resilient to all the above. 

[Pat B]

I've made a few sapling osage bows that were mostly sapwood or at least 50/50 and I'd put those bows against any bow I've made. It is all in how you handle the stave off the stump. Osage sapwood will cure out as strong as almost any whitewood if it is treated properly, just like any other bow wood. It is true, you can cut down an osage tree and let it lay for a long time and still get bow quality wood from it. You won't get any good sapwood from this tree but if you cut, split, seal and store properly you will have osage sapwood that will make a bow. Its not as strong as osage heartwood but it will make a good bow. Leaving a ring or two of sapwood on the back of the bow for the appearance is acceptable if the wood was properly cared for. IMO
 

[PEARL DRUMS]

Josh my opinion is the sapwood doesnt have the same elastic strength the heartwood does. I have no way to be sure. Considering only the very outside, highest points do all the stretching and compressing, my guess is the heartwood bellies compression strength in much higher than the sapwoods elastic strength. Hence ticks and explosions. I have always used all heartwood and will contiunue because its just my gig.

[George Tsoukalas]

Here's what happens in all trees. Pardon the biology lesson but I'm a retired chem teacher who knows a little about biology and I just can't help it. Oh come on! Don't tune me out because I said biology LESSON from a teacher. Stay with me.   First, the only living part of the tree is the cambium layer; we bowyers mistakenly call it the "inner bark". It's NOT bark at all. It contains the xylem and phloem which is the active transport system in the tree bringing the sap from the roots to the leaves. This is why girdling the tree will kill it. This is also why waiting for the sap to be "down" to cut makes no sense because we tear out all that xylem and phloem stuff along with the sap anyway.

Second, all sapwood eventually turns into the DENSER, STRONGER heartwood. Therefore, the closer to the  heartwood is your sapwood back of the bow the stronger it will be. That is why we've all had so much success with osage and BL saplings where the sapwood is closer to the heartwood automatically. It is also not as old as  big tree sapwood so it is much "fresher". I like that term. Someone used it previously. Fresher sounds so nice. Sapling sapwood is ....fresher. Thank you.

In conclusion, if you've taken big tree sapwood and left it for the back of the bow because it looks pretty and simulates yew then congratulations. I'm not willing to take the chance and fly in the face of science.

Please feel free to discuss this with me.

Jawge

[toomanyknots]

In conclusion, if you've taken big tree sapwood and left it for the back of the bow because it looks pretty and simulates yew then congratulations. I'm not willing to take the chance and fly in the face of science.

Please feel free to discuss this with me.

I'll give it a go. With that argument, it sounds like you have a bias towards sapwood in general, when we all know that there are many many trees that will make excellent bows with the first ring as the back, with really only a minority that won't, like cedar or willow I guess, and even then I have seen unbacked bows of both on here and paleoplanet? It seems logical to me that the strongest part of the tree in tension generally would have to be the sapwood, if the tree is to survive strong winds and storms swaying the trees and branches back and forth. The part of the tree under the most tension would have to be the outer sapwood. In my opinion the heartwood of osage has been used by itself for so long, combined with the sapwood's tendency to check when seasoning, that people just started thinking it was unusable.

[Bryce]

He doesn't sound bias at all. Ppl have been taking the sapwood of osage for 1000's of years and for good reason.
Yes lots of trees make good bows with the first ring under the bark. And osage does. But it does not provide any performance gain other than osage bowyers wanting there bows to resemble our yew bows 

[George Tsoukalas]

No bias, toomanyknots, against sapwood. My remarks were intended for BL and osage. Whitewood sapwood is gold. Sorry I did not make that clear. Your opinion is  noted and considered. On osage and BL sapwood rings are so few that the heartwood rings are still pretty close to the bark and you are making a good case for choosing the first few heartwood rings as the back of the bow especially when you consider how much denser the heartwood is than the sapwood. Jawge

[toomanyknots]

No bias, toomanyknots, against sapwood. My remarks were intended for BL and osage. Whitewood sapwood is gold. Sorry I did not make that clear.

Sorry for misunderstanding you. Just trying to point as many holes in an argument as I can I guess,   . I honestly don't know anything about black locust. The only thing I do know is that all I have ever cut has been ridden with big wood eattin grubs. In the couple spots I did know of, there were so many perfect diameter perfectly straight black locust trees it was insane, but the bug infestation was so bad that you could see two or 3 big old bug holes on the outside of almost every tree without even taking the bark off. I did find a new spot with some black locust in a whole different woods though. I think that they might be clean, as I have cut many other trees very close and have never found any bug damage, but who knows. I think I will cut a couple next spring and find out. Black locust is an entirely different creature for me, but I have always wanted to try some and see what made the cherokee like it so much.

[George Tsoukalas]

I like BL, toomanyknots. It has been awhile since I made one. At 64 years I decided to go back to my roots and started working a BL stave. Then I pinched a nerve in my back so the BL project is on hold. The past few years I'm seeing BL trees with worm holes in them too. But last year a storm downed some clean stuff for me. I'm getting there. A little better each day. Lord willing I'll be working some soon. Just be careful with those sapwood backs you like. Jawge