Snakey Osage Help!

[Stingray45]

Ok guys I need some advice from you bowyers out there, particularly those who have experience with osage or any other snakey type staves. I am fairly new to osage and I have never worked with a stave that had this type of snake to it. My question is this, should I use the "curl" as I will call it, as my arrow shelf area? This was originally a huge knot in the stave, I decided that I would be better off following the grain around the knot as you see here rather than incorporating the knot. The stave is 2" wide the entire length except the last few inches it drops down to about an inch and a half. So if I use the curl as the arrow shelf I'll end up with a stave that is 59-1/2" tip to tip. Or if I just let the curl exist in one of the limbs and make it work, I'll have a 66" bow tip to tip. I'd prefer to have the curl in one of the limbs but I'm not sure if that is going to be too much stress or if it should be fine?

Also with this, if I do leave it full length and have the curl in one of the limbs I was thinking of leaving the limbs a full 2" wide until I got past the curl and then tapering down from there in a pyramid style, down to 3/8" nocks. Does this sound feasible? Also what limb would you recommend I have the curl limb as? The bottom or the top? That is if the recommendation is to leave it full length. Thanks for the advice in advance.

~Barry

[Pat B]

Where does the rest of the knot in the swirl go?

[Stingray45]

Hey Pat,

The knot goes out the belly side. So looking at it, from the picture I think you are looking at, there is only about 3/8" of wood above the knot. Also I forgot to mention I'm looking to get 50#-55#@27". With how that knot is I'm probably gonna need to make that non-bending.

[Jimbob]

Is that line in the picture your center mark?  If so it looks like you have a natural rest and it should be pretty center shot.

[mikekeswick]

I would leave it full length and have it in the upper limb. 1 1/2 inch wide is wide enough for osage. Don't worry about making it work just leave it slightly stiff if you are worried. My only worry would be how the swirly grain goes into the limb but until you start reducing it it can be hard to see exactly what you've got. Establish you back ring, then width profile then start reducing thickness leaving the swirly area alone/thicker than the rest. Then as you get closer to finished dimensions you will be able to get a much better idea what is happening with the grain there.

[blackhawk]

Imho id make the knotted swirl in the handle area and make that my arrow pass area. Because 59.5" is enough osage  for my 24-25" draw length. And id flip or recurve the tips. If you need more draw length than mine then you could sinew back it lightly and make a 59.5" stiff handled recurve .

[PEARL DRUMS]

It will work with any of the methods stated above I think.  They all know whats what. One thing I know....its going to be COOL once you get it done! I love that Jim Hamm recurve with the ugly knot in the riser on TBII's cover. That dip in would make for a RH center shot recurve!

[Stingray45]

Thanks for the replies guys. As Pat B brought up was the knot and where it goes to and it looks like I don't have much wood between the knot and the back of the bow. I've already chased a ring so I dont have to worry about taking anymore wood off that way. But I think my plan is going to be to leave it as a short bow and use the swirl as an arrow pass. I like cut in shelves typically because of it being  loser to center shot, so this would be a natural center shot bow once I build up a handle.

Jimbob, that line I drew there is the line I would use for center if I decided to use the curl as the arrow pass. With that as the center line I would get 59.5". I was thinking of making a non-bending handle and I need to get a draw length of 27"-27.5" so I may end sinew backing and flipping the tips. I'll put up some bow dimensions that I am thinking about later today.

[Alpinbogen]

If you put the wiggle as your arrow pass, that big knot will be at the upper part of the grip and in the fade, where there is alot of stress.  I can't tell how far it goes across the stave, but I think there's a good chance it will get a big crack across it during tillering and be likely to break shortly after.  It's not the left-right wiggle that I'd be worried about, but that big knot underneath. 

So, I'd put the wiggle in the working part of the limb.  Looking at the picture, I think the degree of wiggle is actually less than what the stave shows at first glance.  There's a chunk of wood missing at the apex of the curve on the right, and some useless extra wood (as grain runout) below it.  I loaded your photo up in MS Paint, and drew lines as precisely as I could with where I'd lay out the centerline, following the grain, and the limb edges.  (It's tricky to freehand drawing a line with a mouse.)  Lay it out for a 1.5" max width bow for starters and try to keep the wiggle as far to the upper limb tip as you can, so that it is in the narrowest part of the limb possible. (Hint:  If you make the bow with asymmetrical limbs, it will help get the wiggle out farther on the upper limb.)  Then take a rasp and carefully work the wiggle down to the line.  Check and see if you've removed all of the knot.  If so, you're good to go.  If not, re-lay out the limb widths to 1-3/8", 1-1/4", or even 1-1/8" wide and repeat.  Do that in increments.  You can re-establish the centerline closer to the left side of the stave each time to get even further from the knot.  Once you are clear of the knot and have determined the width you have to work with, you can decide on the bow's length.  If just a hint of the knot remains, one final trick to chewing off that knot is to make a very radiused belly instead of a flat belly.

That's what I can offer anyway.  There's lots of preliminary pencil work, grain tracing, and test rasping involved sometimes to get the best bow there is out of a stave.  Time spent on the front end of a bowmaking project is well worth preventing trouble later on.  One last thing...when you're tracing the centerline of the bow, do it completely from end to end (not just at the knot) to be sure you don't have grain runout farther away that will limit where the centerline can go.

[JW_Halverson]

Good advice from Aplinbogen.  Until you run that centerline along the grain from end to end you are working with an unknown quantity of wood. 

Good luck!

[blackhawk]

Yeah but it wood suck to cut to those lines and not be able to have enough limb width and the knot was still there on the side of your limb. There's too much unknown from our point of view. The only way id suggest if you did that is to cut it full width the majority of its length and don't reduce any thickness. That way you'll know if you can put it in the limb or not. Just don't go any skinnier than an 11/8" in that spot if you do.

[Stingray45]

Thanks for the advice Alpinbogen. I actually took another look at the stave after you mentioned your idea and I may try taking it out that way. I'm going back to visit family this weekend and my Dad has a drum sander so I may try taking out the knot in that way. I looked at where the knot comes out the back of the stave, it looks like I could have about 1-3/4" after I take out the knot so I'll see how it works out. I would prefer to leave it full length because of my 27.5" draw length, the 66" would leave me a little room for error, 59.5" would not.

[Alpinbogen]

Even if worse came to worse (in narrowing), a 66" x 1" wide, working handled ELB would support most "mortal" draw weights at 28".