All of you have helped so much, working with Shannon and Jeff was the ticket. it helped to have that one on one time. Timo one day I will get to see that indirect method you are doing and Tower's thinning and notching technique. Cowboy he really did not like that point on his feeder lol. Triggerfinger you will get it if you keep hanging around this forum. Please understand I am not bragging but after I understood what I was doing it has become much easier and is very relaxing and fun and something I look forward to doing at the end of the day. A few more points on the leather pad and I will understand the pressure and angle thing. It was funny yesterday because after I knocked off an edge while pressure flaking I instantly knew what I had done wrong and laughed about it. I am just happy that I can knock off the other side.