Conversation about double curve bows (again)

[fusizoli]

Any kind of opinion, pic or evidence is wellcome. Try to clear this question about curves, types and direction of tham. What is authentic?

few example

double curve lakota bows

a: an example of deflexed curve bow with reflexed handle, but the form is that kind what we schould see as an RD bow. Actually the flat belly and the backing shows the right direction in this case.



b: another lakota with tipycal gull wing form, nothing more have to say it is shure deflexed.

http://groups.creighton.edu/sfmission/museum/archive/images/bmlm_721.jpg

c: Lakota oglala



It looking reflexed for me.

Same tribe



Shure it is deflexed as this one from the same tribe...



some more example...

The title say "Antique - Sioux Bow  /made a replica from this one, schould see here http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,26649.0.html /
Old painted bow, circa 1880, approx 1,26m"



What is the right direction of the curves??? It looking a braced bow for me, painted on the back.

Next one
Antique Buffalo Bow
Authentic buffalo bow from the Assiniboine Tipis Collection (circa 1870). This type of short bow approx 1,10m long, was primerly used by Plains Indians such as the Comanche, Kiowa, Pawnee, Osage, Apache, Navajo, and Hopi to hunt on horseback



It looking a deflexed tip bow for me. But it schould be the opposite too.

Next from AMNH
Sioux bow



Are those reflexed or deflexed tips?

Blackfeet



Braced backward or not?

Apache Mescalero



Right direction?

A very nice gull wing Apache Jicarilla bow, nothing more have to say



and so on, and so on....

Hope U understand my broblam. I ve only got pics and some google books and looking your work. Couldn't go in the American Indian museum and collections for a closer look.
Please help to clear this. I know it is an old story......just I am new
Thanks Zoltan

[JackCrafty]

All the bows in the pictures have deflexed tips.  One of the bows is strung backwards:  the "Antique Sioux" bow.  If it is truely a Sioux bow, then it looks like it is strung backwards.  If it is a bow made by another tribe further east or south, then it is possible that it is strung correctly.  The painted pattern does not look like a Sioux design to me.  Sioux bows were very rarely painted with patterns, as far as I know.

[fusizoli]

Wow I'm at the wrong place? 

Thanks for the reply Jack!

Those pics just examples.

Should post some more


http://collections.civilisations.ca/public/pages/cmccpublic/alt-emupublic/Display.php?irn=28534&QueryPage=Query.php&lang=0

http://collections.civilisations.ca/public/pages/cmccpublic/alt-emupublic/Display.php?irn=35206&QueryPage=Query.php&lang=0

[JonW]

Zoltan,
      I could count on one hand the bows I have looked at in museums, but they were all DEFLEXED tips. That's all I can really speak about.

Jon W.
   

[fusizoli]

Thanks Jon!

Waiting for others.....

Here is another pic. The second man from right is the most important.

[Traxx]

I believe,they are all Deflexed tiped bows.I believe the Bow in Pic 5 is strung improperly.It was not uncommon to see Decoration,on the Belly of bows as the bow in pic 2.The predominate bow style from the far north in the Canadian Plains,all through the Midwest,on down through the southwest,was the Double curve Bow.It is Properly,a Reflex/Deflex bow.The term D/R is used improperly,for the Popular style most associated,with modern glass bows today.It is Properly a Deflex/Reflex Bow,but most seem to use the term interchangably nowdays,and i feel that it leads to the confusion.I have Nevwer seen an old pic of a plains Native,or any native throughout the region,where the style was popular,with the bow braced in the D/R posistion.I have only seen that happen in Museums,where Curators are not knowledgable about Native archery,or any archery for that Matter.Trust me though,When i say,that it does a person,NO GOOD,to try and explain or educate those people on their mistakes.They dont accept,Nor appreciate this type of help,unless their is a PHD attached to your Name.I actually had this told to me,in the Past.A Bow in the State Museum here in Carson City,is Braced backwards and has been that way,for many years,even though i tried to explain to them,the how and why of the design and why the sinew was designed to be on the Back of the Bow,not the belly.

[Traxx]

I made an error in the previous post.It should have read,"The term R/D,is used improperly,for the poular style,most associated with modern glass bows today.

[fusizoli]

Thanks a lot Traxx!

Fells a big step forward in learn more from this bows and a bit sad at the same time.
Sad because I like this "modern" form adaptation and like to make bows like this.
Other wise I could feel myself better if "replicate" an indian bow, than do it the right way.

I think the compromise is, if not call my bows like this on any tribe name, just a shortbow (DR if understand well your explanation)
And the reflexed handle deflexed tip Indinan bows RD "replicas" I could feel myself free to call on the correct tribe name.
 

I dont want to critic  any bowyer's work with this questions, just make this thing clear for myself.


Thanks again! Feel free to comment this topic!

[PatM]

Have to along with the deflexed tips on every single one.
 Don't worry Fusi you can just  call your bows Mohegan or Eastern Woodland. There's more evidence that they may have had the deflexed handle and recurved outer limbs.

[fusizoli]

Ok I will looking for this bow pics..Thanks!

[JackCrafty]

I've seen some plains bows with slightly recurved tips.  There is some painting and photo evidence of this too, but not many.

The two paintings below were done by Gatlin.  However, paintings are always subject to interpretation and bias of the artist.  Clearly, they show slightly recurved tips.

One photo below shows a boy holding a bow with a slightly recured tip at the top.  The other photo shows a man with a bow that has a slight recurve on the bottom limb.

[fusizoli]

I think most of this gull wing type bows have just straight outer limb. I heat a very little reflex in tham which reduce to straight in tiller. At full draw they are still near straight.
My question is not about gull wing bows but the other double curve bows. I dont know the right name of this bows. Like this one
 


They have a long reflexed inner -mid part and a deflexed tip, like semitic bows. At reverse, some of the bowyers say the semitic bows are reflexed tip bows but I think they are deflexed.

Here is some of my gull wing bows