Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: sonny on August 24, 2008, 04:15:50 pm
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Pat made that statement with regards to Dan's locust sapling bow, which made me wonder where we get our notions about what will or won't make a bow...
when I got started making bows I read through TBB vol1 from front to back and while there's some very good info in there I'm not sure I believe it all (stated with all due respect to those who wrote chapters therein!!)
for instance- the only one that comes to mind presently- in the chapter about bow design and performance it is suggested that a hickory flatbow of X length should have limbs of 1-3/4" width, when I have a buddy that made several hickory bows that were no wider than 1". granted the wood that he used for those bows was exceptional!!
My point being that my buddy hasn't read TBB vol1 so he had no preconceived notion that it shouldn't/ wouldn't work.
Please keep in mind that this thread is not about hickory bows but is about our notions of what it takes to make a good wooden bow.
OK, so simply stated, and with no intention of starting an argument, let's hear about stuff you don't necessarily feel is right, though you've heard it stated or read it.
Also, please give examples of bows that supposedly wouldn't work but did.
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the following stated in a reply so it doesn't get confused in the post above...
I don't recall having read it anywhere but have heard it stated that osage sapwood should always be removed. well I cut a nice osage tree back in December, promptly took it to a buddy's to split and store it. He and I discussed what we'd like to make from the wood and at some point we wondered out loud why the sapwood had to be removed.
He subsequently made a half sapwood half heartwood narrow D bow that shoots well and holds an inch or so of reflex after relaxing for an hour or so. I can only assume that what I heard about osage sapwood needing to be removed is not really true.....
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Ask KOAN about the osage, half sapwood/half heartwood bow I sent him for the Christmas Trade last year! It shot better than a similar bow I made using all heartwood. I have used sapwood of osage, mulberry with good results and now after Dan's fabulous locust sapling bow, I will try locust. Maybe that will be the ticket to keep me from fretting locust! Pat
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Interesting picture in TBB 4 (p. 49) of someone who made a bow out of white pine (he apparently did not know that "you can't make a bow from" white pine).
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Yep Pat its awesome...but cant really judge fairly with 1 bow, sooo....somebody send me another half sapwood, half heartwood osage bow to compare 8) ::).
Ya, I know watcha mean..I think most of us have built a few from kiln dry wood wich use to be a no no.lol....We break the rules of status quo bow building everyday round here, usually with great results. ;) I think we are all just scraping the surface of the past and the future of bowyering....Brian
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sonny I posted a Sumac bow this month, I was told its junk wood but guess what its still shooting.
I like trying different woods ya never know until ya try eh :)
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Prejudices can be intertwined with instructions because the writer is giving you ALL of his opinions on how to manufacture the weapon anyway. If he had tried to make an ELB from ash, and inmmediately strung it up like he would have with yew and Osage, the bow would take too much set. We know that now. Likewise, if we rush bows trhough tillering, or don't design them rpoperly, the sapwood would provide a spot for the bow to break. Personally, I think leaving the sapwood intact is fine- it insures one ring and simply reduces the mass of the piece. Since many of us use less dense woods anyway, why should it make that big a difference? I think if one goes slowly enough, and watches the bow as it forms, then the chances of its survival, and power, greatly increase.
Anyway, there's only one way to know for sure, and that's to try. If it fails, oh well.
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I was given a black ash stave and from everything I've read on it, its supposed to be one of the worst bow woods.
Although it will be my first stave bow, I thought what the heck go for it.
Right now I've almost got it to the floor tiller stage so we'll see.
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Prejudices can be intertwined with instructions because the writer is giving you ALL of his opinions on how to manufacture the weapon ......
Well said Kegan!
unfortunately I tend to believe whatever's said to be true without testing it's validity.
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For many years all I had to learn from and to assist me with building bows was what I could read...and I read most of the books out there. As far as I was concerned it was all gospel because it was from the guys that were actually making their own bows of wood. Paul Comstock's book, "The Bent Stick" gave life it building bows from "other" woods besides yew and osage and Tim Baker brought to light that many other woods could and should be used for bows. The only way to find out is by doing what Tim did...make bows from every possible wood available. Look how far wood bow archery has come from the days when these guys began their quests. Many folks out there don't have access to osage or yew or mulberry or locust but almost everyone out there has some kind of wood growing near them or has an available source. With a proper design for the wood you have available to you, you can make a good bow. But you have to try first! Pat
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sonny I posted a Sumac bow this month, I was told its junk wood but guess what its still shooting.
I like trying different woods ya never know until ya try eh :)
Yep.....and I shot it...and it was a nice Shooting Bow too...... was a lot more Bow than I was expecting from Sumac!! I have a Paddle Bow made from Poplar....they said was not going to work either....and it still shoots fine after 3 years and hundreds of Arrows....and is still 45 pounds at 28 inches
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What's the saying? "Don't believe what you read and only believe half of what you see" I guess it all depends on whos doing the writing. These are great bowyers, we're talking about, they did set down some pretty good guidence.
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Well I made a paddle bow of willow and it wasn't hardly worth burning. It must have taken 8 Inches of set by the time I tillered it to 6 inches. ::) So that one is confirmed. Justin
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I've made three longbows from kilndried pine, after getting the idea from Thimo.
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Kegan~
Your example below, is exactly what I am planning to do-make and ELB from a 74" White Ash stave. What did you mean exactly by it?
"If he had tried to make an ELB from ash, and inmmediately strung it up like he would have with yew and Osage, the bow would take too much set."
I want to be sure and not do it, whatever it is. Can you explain?
~~Papa Matt
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In Pope's book, after the bow is roughed out, he immediately strings it up and begins tillerign it. It pulls over 80# and he brings it striaght to full brace. We've learend from "Jim Hamm tillering" to never stress the wood beyond desired weight, and tiller it slowly from not bending at all, to brace, and then slowly to full draw. I've made several white wood ELBs and other narrow designs, and unless the wood is too wet, I haven't had any trouble with them following th stirng too much or being bad bows. Heat treating also helps in extreme cases, like elm bows that sare 1 1/4" wide and pulling over 80#.
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Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation. :)
~~Matt
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I made an osage flat bow with help on the net by posting pictures as I went. When all tillered I stated that I planned to recurve the tips and was told by most of these helpful folks that could not be done after the bow was tillered. Did it anyway and it turned out fine - named the bow No No Nannette.
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Bootboy have you tried the closet-dowel bow yet???
You just decrown the back and narrow and thin the outer 1/3 of each limb, back it with linen and bingo a elb in a day.
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I hear a lot of "hickory is slow, and its tough to dry completely." Around here, it dries as fast as my other white wood staves, including red and white oak, and elm. The woods not slow, maybe you are just fast. The fastest bow that I have ever seen in my life is Hickory.
Also, I hear too much praise for osage. I would... if I lived near them! If you lived where i do, osage is not the best. Wait... there is no osage. So hickory is the best.
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Arthur,
Good to hear your comment on osage getting too much praise. I somewhat agree but I'm not sure that I understand all of what you mean. Also, I agree wholeheartedly that hickory is not slow. In fact, if I'm not mistaken a hickory self bow holds some kind of world record. I think the problem most people have with it, is the same one I have. It's not hard to dry it, but it's hard to keep it dry. It seems like compared to other woods hickory draws more moisture.
For sure, there ain't a thing wrong with a good ol tough hickory. Some of my fastest bows have been hickory. I got a heart for the ol boy over here in Indiana too.
~~Papa Matt
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I tend to play sure bets instead of long shots. I'm glad to let the retired and single guys with lots of free time on their hands help me figure out who to bet on.
Perhaps the most risky thing I've made is a couple of osage bows with sapwood backs. Nothing particularly shocking. One a flatbow in '02 and an ELB in '03. Both in fine shape today. I only have a couple thousand arrows through the flatbow, but many, many thousands through the ELB, plus alot of time at brace getting dragged through the woods during the hunting seasons. I've used that one hard.
IMO, in order to dub bow making "stunts" as being successful, they need to be validated with a statement on their current status and a description of heavy useage and longevity. For that matter, it would be equally interesting to see the list of stunts that were initially thought to be successful, but which softened or died with continued use over a solid season or two of hunting, or less. Firecrackers and one hit wonders to be revealed. ;)
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Adam- I think you're right, about not being able to fully judge a bow without years of hard use. But that might be an appealing side effect to white woods. Where a poorly built osage bow might last much long, a poorly built whitewood bow might only last a year or two. However, these bows can much more easily be built, and so replaced. If both were built well, then they would last a long time, provided the wood is uip to it. Even Pope wrote that his yew bows only lasted a thousand or so shots before slowly breaking down. In an old article of PA there was the story of "Old Hic", a 50 year old hickory bow that surived the abuse opf a child hood, and lived to shoot again. Most Native Americans used what they had on hand, and having fed and clothes themselves, there's clearly somethng to it.
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OK, Ive been building some pretty decent white wood bows lately but you won't see me changing my signature line anytime soon.... ::)
As far as bow woods go theres not enough praise in the world for Osage. Its still the king of bow woods, hands down whether you like it or not ;D ;)
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Just like high school, those that can't get her will always bad mouth her. Osage you perverts. ;D
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i like hedge but i dont think its king, i like ipe also
i have finished bows aout of both,the ipe both times have been backed with boo,however i think it makes a smaller ,as in thickness and width,
and equally fast and effective bow as hedge even with out the boo. both are truly exceptional bow woods
i use boo backing on bows that i make for others only cause it gives me a little more feeling of safety in the hands of others.
i want to try other woods that i dont have access to i also want to try woods that arent supposed to be so good just to see for my self
tim
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Tim your funny!! ::)
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ya but looks dont count ;D
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I held the 50# broadhead flight record for a couple of years with osage bows but got beat by a few ft last year by a desert dry hickory bow. I actually think we shot about the same distance but I was off line a bit. But the point is any wood can do it. This has been a good thread, goes right along with how I have spent the bulk of my bow maling time. A predermined width for a bow is no more than an educated guess. The tiller a guy uses, the length of the bow, draw length and design have huge impacts on a bow. You could have 2 bows made from the same tree of say hickory or maple or whatever that were the same draw weight say 60# and the same length say 66" and the same draw length say 28". One might be properly designed at 1 1/8" wide and the other at 2" wide. A bend through the handle arc of the circle tillered bow can be much narrower than a stiff handled stiff tipped bow and not have any more strain on it. I have seen red oak bows 1 3/8 wide and 72" long drawing 100#. If you know the wood is dry I think monitoring the set a bow is taking and using side tillering will give you proper width. Steve
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So....with all that said, who made the BALSA BOW?!!!
Maybe nobody....yet ;D
As for me, I plan on playing around with pine for bows.
Badger, do you know a good width for pine?
I can get some really nice clean boards with maybe 40 rings per inch if I look hard enough.
Plan on making a flatbow 72" long, just need a rough width estimate for 30-40#@26"
Alex
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I think most white wood will make a great bow,maybe even as good as Osage ,they just take a little more care ,dunning tillering and after they are finished,that being said you can do some crazy things
with Osage that I have not been able to do with Hickory.Such as these 2 examples,real knotty
or holey stuff. I have read that you need a clean straight piece of wood to make a quality bow
and for a long time searched that out but I found out that ant the case. :)
Pappy
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Pappy, love those bows.
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Pappy, what's the finish you got on that'n there to get it so nice and shiny?
~~Matt
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Gun stock Tru Oil. Thanks waterlogged. I was just trying to show wood don't have to be prefect. :)
Pappy
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Where can ya get that? Wal Mart?
~~Matt
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Ya at wally world in the gun section,or any gun supply store. :) I use the rub on kind
but they make it in a spray.It's cheaper in the bottle and goes a lot futher.I can do several
bows with one bottle and about 1 bow with a can of the spray. :)
Pappy
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Does it dry glossy like that in your pic or was that one still wet?
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Matt is shines like a Brand New Penny forever....it is some super glossy stuff...I aways buff it with 0000 steel wool to knock the Shine down a notch
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Far out. I hope it ain't too expensive cause I'll be headin' over to get some of that tonight. No wonder I've seen so much on here about you brothers using True Oil. Now I know why. Thanks!
~~Matt
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It's no more than a Can of paint..........I normally buy mine by the three pack of Bottles for about $15.00 for Gun Stocks....this come with the Stains and waxtoo....otherwise it costs less than $7.00 anywhere I have seen just the Sealer
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Right on. Thanks, El.
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Matt, Buy the 4oz bottle of Tru-Oil. The larger bottles are probably cheaper by the oz but it will go bad (gets lumpy)if you have it too long. Also store it up side down on its cap. It last longer then.
To remove the gloss from Tru-Oil I add a quick spray of satin poly over the top and it cuts the shine well. I found that buffing with steel wool will dull the finish but after brushing against your cloths while walking around it will gloss up again. The satin poly stays dull. Pat
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Right on, thanks for the advice.
~~Matt
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Thimo I couldnt find any straight grainned dowels, Well i could but they were plywood dowels. pfff
Im still looking.
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I think im going to try bass wood and balsa
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Do you's brothers coat your arrows in True Oil as well?
~~Papa Matt
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Matt, I have used Tru-Oil on arrows. Pat