Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: jape on July 02, 2008, 06:03:00 am

Title: breaking tooooo many
Post by: jape on July 02, 2008, 06:03:00 am
Well I am fed up, I didn't mind blaming my bad aim for most of them but too many wooden arrows break with the smallest off-centre impact or if they hit the wooden supports and miss the hay bale! I have lost or broken two dozen POC or Victorian Ash (fine grained eucalyptus) in a year. Now I know what I am doing a bit more I just made a dozen POC arrows and two broke in the first hour! OK one hit the support but one just broke in the hay bale! I spent three days fletching and painting them, got them slightly over spined (45-50 for a 45 bow) and spent HOURS tuning them individually.  And the money wasted is adding up. I think maybe arrow wood might not be all that good these days, I dunno, not so tight grained or something? I was given two, twenty year old very light weight arrows, look like beech or ash, for mucking around and although badly spined they have hit everything from a tin shed to a number of trees and survived while POC and VA seem to shatter behind the point, sometimes across the shaft and twice in the bloody bow as I fired!
I have read many posts here and a lot of you say bamboo is very strong. Will I be wasting my time going for that next? Or should I just get some allies like my mates tell me too? ::)
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: Cromm on July 02, 2008, 06:22:58 am
Hi, What kind of bow do you shoot? And what kind of points? Do you  taper the wood to put the points on or are they the parallel sort,because I've found that the parallel points work better for me because there being more wood at the tip when hitting something there's less chance of it snapping.
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: jape on July 02, 2008, 07:27:02 am
Hi Cromm, I am using both a boo-backed eucalyptus longbow at 35# and lately a Chekmate Longhorn at 45# (it is far smoother to shoot than the lighter bow). I use VA or POC shafts of correct spine, tapered at the tip 5 degrees for tapered glue-on field points. Shafts vary from 400 to 500 gn finished and I select carefully to use none with grain runout after I got splinters in my hand from a commercially purchased 'exploding' POC shaft first time I used it.

I am fed up with throwing away three or more out of every dozen shafts for either faulty grain or excessively light weight even if spined correctly. Just getting too expensive and even the so-called premium priced 'selected' shafts were poor value. In Australia here, when I posted about the faults on forums, I got told off because no-one else it seems has these problems! But I am not that bad at making arrows, just maybe too particular about selection. For example, I bought a dozen POC at 45 to 50# spine and the mass varied from 240 to 450! I also bought 24 VA shafts and half, seriously, half of them were so bent that even heat straightening doesn't work well. I don't want to say names because so many others support these guys and they do indeed work hard at supporting traditional archers.

I also had problems with the first longbow I bought from a local maker (I was green and excited), badly gouged finish, overweight, handle popping off, glue starved boo joints etc. and got flamed for stating that on forum! So I don't want to get a reputation for just being a whiner but I truly think standards are low. Another example, I just got fifty fletches and four of them are badly creased, one or two have a quill split. Maybe that is another thread to post but my money is very tight and I expect perfect or near perfect when I buy! The Longhorn is second-hand and was quite expensive for me to buy on my pension but it is brilliant to shoot so I would love to match some wood arrows for it.

I just don't think, although I can be grumpy at times, I am that bad at working shafts. Even taking into consideration my own mistakes and the learning curve for a beginner, too many get rejected by me and of them, too many still break.

It is quite possible that a couple of unhappy coincidences and my own lack of skill have added to the woes but I just want to find a good source of shaft wood so I can carry on happily making, tuning and experimenting with different fletches and arrows. I found that ordering shafts from USA means doubling the price including postage, well out of reach thus. So ...... bamboo?
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: Hillbilly on July 02, 2008, 07:31:17 am
Yep. Go with cane, bamboo, and hardwood. I can go through a dozen POC shafts in no time, but so far, I have never broken a cane/bamboo arrow. Hardwood shoot shafts are tough, too.
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: jape on July 02, 2008, 10:09:03 am
Thanks Hillbilly, just found a stand of bamboo on next door's block! That is the sort of coincidence I love, after thinking about it just today so I will ask if I can have a few, the locally available shop ones for gardening are crap. Will read up the posts in this section about bamboo treatment and get to work! I assume you scrape away the shine for fletching and nock glueing. How do you add field points to them? I assume they are hollow, hmmm I best go and get some and find out!
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: Papa Matt on July 02, 2008, 11:08:27 am
Jape,
 
If you don't have success with what you're trying now, let me know. I could send you some nice shafts and just ask that you pay the shipping. I'm in Indiana, and have found a local hardware store that sells hardwood dowel rods that work real nice for arrows, and I have never broken any.

-Matt
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: wanabehunter on July 02, 2008, 11:56:39 am
I bought hand selected poc shafts.. I have 3/12 left... they all split or broke... im very unhappy with them.. it almost made me want to buy aluminum  >:D ... I have poplar shafts I bought at lowes.. The only ones that have broke were on purpose when I was testing them.. shooting trees (like 15 times!) shooting cement ect... you can find good ones!

I'm set up a spine tester and go to lowes for my shafts... forget 4$ a shaft.. lowes is 70 cents...

Ive spent more on making arrows then I have my bow.. lol I bought a blitz jig for 70$, feather chopper 18$, field tips 12$, broad heads 20$, Feathers 30$, hand selected poc shafts 41$

one doz arrows..  41$+12$+20$+30$ over 100$ :S
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: scattershot on July 02, 2008, 12:42:41 pm
The fact that your shafts break in the bale indicates to me that they are not impacting straight. I believe you are overspined by a bunch, particularly on the 35# bow. Try a lighter spine, and maybe shoot a bareshaft or two to really get an idea what's going on.

Give that a try and get back to us.

Good luck!
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: mullet on July 02, 2008, 07:32:36 pm
  Definately, go for the bamboo. They are almost indestructable.
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: jape on July 02, 2008, 08:42:18 pm
Looks like the boo and some hardwood dowel is the go then. I will miss the smell of cedar!

Matt, that is really generous, thanks for the offer. I can get rod here cheap enough when I next drive down to the city so I wont take you up on it but I really appreciate your kindness. I will try that idea along side of the bamboo. I'm hoping  the boo will work as it grows next door for free!

Scattershot, these are all individually bare tuned shafts to the bow. That is why I got the heavier spine for the Longhorn 45/50 for a 45 bow - but two of those broke in an hour of being made. I just think POC doesn't hold up to my bad form and is not that good a shaft material these days, maybe the old timers selected from slower grown trees or something. Or are you saying I should go for the next spine group up than is usually the case? Say a 50/55 for the 45 bow and the 40/45 for the 35 longbow?

Another archer posted recently in a local forum that he broke six POC in a week when any went a bit sideways, breaking in the shaft near the fletch, not just at the point, which confirms my thinking and inspired my post here as I had just that morning broken two. Yes, we may have bad form, but the number breaking shouldn't be so high, or else beginners shouldn't use POC!

I guess my overall feelings of annoyance at poor materials and uncaring practises of some sellers has made me more intolerant than usual. The POC supplier when I enquired about the large weight difference just said that is how they come and they don't have time to sort them and the VA supplier sent me more (which I then paid for, my choice) when I complained. He reckoned the weather difference warped the shafts. Maybe, but I reckon he should have wrapped them better then. On reflection, we could all add up the bad stories and forget the good ones.

And alongside of the bad stories, there are some very helpful and kind souls amongst archers, sorta makes me feel less like a grumpy old sod!
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: Hillbilly on July 02, 2008, 09:00:25 pm
Jape, all the cedar shafts I've ever tried have been easily broken, I don't care much for store-bought cedar shafts. I don't really know why it came to be regarded as the primo arrowshaft material, unless everybody just likes the smell of it? I'd rather shoot arrows than sniff them.:) With the boo shafts, you can taper them and put field points on them just like any other shaft. If the hole in the center is too big, you can plug it by gluing a piece of dowel or bamboo skewer an inch or two into the end, and taper as usual.
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: The Burnt Hill Archer on July 02, 2008, 09:14:12 pm
i had the same expierience with cedar. the only good thing about em, i thought, was the smell when they broke. which was often. i got a dozen ash shafts from allegeheny mountain arrow woods 2 years ago, and i am still shooting every one. and mind you im not easy on my arrows. i glanced one off a cherry branch while squirrell hunting, 90 degrees into the ground, and not a crack. my favorite target in my yard is a 4 foot wide white oak tree. ash shafts + ace hex heads = one unbreakable arrow.
     
    i havnt gotten to mess with bamboo/reed/cane but i have heard great stuff about em.

Phil
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: El Destructo on July 02, 2008, 09:26:16 pm
I cant wait till the Boo that Eddie gave me is ready....because since Saturday....I have broken 5 P.O Arrows....and sliced gouges out of two more....so this was an expensive week so far...just learning to shoot this Paddle Bow that I just finished.....I am going to have to get to work on that load of Cane that Cowboy and Jesse sent me....and get away from these Sissy Cedar Arrows myself!!!
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: jape on July 02, 2008, 09:45:06 pm
Just realised I got Scattershot's suggestions the wrong way round! Hadn't had my morning coffee is my excuse.

The bamboo from next door is straight and strong, bright yellow stuff. Maybe that will lift my spirits, we are in damp, drizzly winter here and I do enjoy lighting the fire and sitting at my work table making arrows. A glass of single malt and a cigar will help.

El Destructo, I live with a smashed back myself, can't hardly walk a lot of the time especially after cutting my firewood, and I have to say that reading your posts always lifts the depression a bit and makes me more determined to keep trying with archery, 'good onya' as we say here.

Thanks fellas.
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: mullet on July 02, 2008, 10:04:03 pm
  Well Mike, the boo you have growing is Japanese arrow 'Boo, good stuff. Jape, I hit one of Pappy's metal targets with my bamboo arrow and all it did was split from the point to the fletching. That was from about 15 yards with a 62# bow, made nice sparks. It is still shootable if I wrap it.
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: El Destructo on July 02, 2008, 10:06:55 pm
  Well Mike, the boo you have growing is Japanese arrow 'Boo, good stuff. Jape, I hit one of Pappy's metal targets with my bamboo arrow and all it did was split from the point to the fletching. That was from about 15 yards with a 62# bow, made nice sparks. It is still shootable if I wrap it.

I am straightening Cane as I type....never done it before ....so I am going slow....got to be better that these Balsa Wood Arrows I got now!!!! You look at them wrong and they break!!!!
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: mullet on July 02, 2008, 10:14:02 pm
  Mike, when you go to cut the knock; there is a stiff side to cane. That side needs to be against the handle. You can lean the arrow, one end on the floor and the other end against a table, and with your palm applying enough down pressur to bend it slightly roll it slow. When you roll to the stiff side it will flip real fast. Mark that side and line your knock up so that is against the handle. Hope this makes sense.
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: Hillbilly on July 02, 2008, 10:28:37 pm
The stiff sides are usually where the branches attach at the nodes(flatter side of the node).
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: El Destructo on July 02, 2008, 10:40:58 pm
Makes good sense....will do that here in a couple days ...when I have worked all of the Ginks out of this Cane!!!
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: recurve shooter on July 03, 2008, 12:02:58 am
my two cents worth:  ;D

im an idiot. i aint broken any of my poc shafts. what's up with your shafts man?!  ???

anyhow. cane should be MUCH tougher. just be carefull with yer knocks and points.  ;)
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: DBernier on July 03, 2008, 07:44:42 am
Mike, please just get closer to the hay bale, even 10 yards. Do that until your group is 6 inch's with 6 arrows. THEN move back in 5 yard increments.

Dick
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: jape on July 03, 2008, 10:20:20 am
6" at 6 yards? Blimey, I miss the haybale twice at 15! But I am improving, meanwhile, I will blame the arrows a bit thanks.
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: El Destructo on July 03, 2008, 06:54:41 pm
I never practice with a New Bow at more than 20 foot....and the problem with the Arrows is ...that the least bump between Arrows when Target Practicing...and the POC Arrows will split or splinter....I hit the Cedar Fence with one that barely missed the Tennis Ball I was shooting at...and it blew 3 inches off the end...along with the Nock and a Feather...but my main bitch about the Cedar Arrows is inconsistency in spine....per weight...they are so off ...this last 24 I bought...all weighed within 20-25 grains.....I took them down to the same weight....and when shooting them...out of the 24.....I have 7 that group together consistently....the others are all over the Place....I don't have a Spine Tester....so I just color coded all of the Arrows that hit Left....and those that Hit Right consistently...so I know which are over and under spined ...I am looking for some kind of Hardwood Shafts for 3D Shooting...but I don't care for the Ramin....they are too thin for the Weight....I am partial to a fatter Arrow....don't know why!!!
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: Cromm on July 03, 2008, 08:17:50 pm
Hi,
OK how do you spine test an cane/bamboo shaft? There's a website that is selling tonkin shafts but they are unspined and you have to do it yourself.....But i don't want to buy 24 of them and only get 3 good ones for my cash/ bow! Also are you looking for ones that are the same size as 11/32 or 5/16 POC shafts, because i do not know??? Thanks for your time.
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: jape on July 03, 2008, 08:40:29 pm
I'm fed up with all this technical stuff and expensive tools and products that aren't what they say they are. I just bought a load of 11/32 field points and the taper is different to the taper tool taper, (yes I did check which end!) also they are too small for the 11/32 shafts but too big for the 5/16! So what is wrong, the point or the shaft?

I'm just going to take a breath, buy some dowel, dry the boo and then I am gonna MAKE them work. I'm not going to spine test any more, I will bare tune each shaft to whatever length they require down to my draw length, then match them by length afterwards into sets and fletch and paint or whatever. The only ones rejected then will be ones way too light that won't take the strain and they can be tuned for the longbow.

No more POC, I just worked out I spent more than $400 on making arrows in my first eighteen months and I got 10 left. That's ridiculous. I don't think my ancestors purchased shafts from 3000 km away, used spine gauges or fletching jigs, and I got all my fingers, a reasonably well working brain and nature around me so that will have to do!
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: Cromm on July 03, 2008, 08:53:04 pm
Good for you Grumpy!!!!
I've found that with the brass point's that if i taper the shafts all the way then that's too much and they don't sit on the end,so i maked on the taper tool how far i needed to go down and that worked for me....... Hope that helps a little? :P
A little bit of sanding may be needed on the ends,so your tool will fit.. ::)
Because i've had the samething happen to me with the 11/32 POC shafts.
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: billy on July 03, 2008, 11:56:38 pm
Jey Jape,

I don't like Port Orford cedar either.  The damn arrows are straight, but just aren't durable worth a damn.  I prefer to use rivercane (a native bamboo to the SE United States).  When you make your own shafts, you really have control over length, spine, etc.  My rivercane shafts fly just as good as the cedar (if not better) and they are much more durable. 
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: mullet on July 04, 2008, 12:57:19 am
  Cane, Tonkin, arrow boo or sasha boo is all I hunt with and 3-D shoot. The only shafts of wood I've been happy with is some barreled tapered pine shafts I get from a gentleman in Alabama that sells shafts for a living. Somebody can PM me if they want to know who it is.
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: George Tsoukalas on July 05, 2008, 10:58:25 am
jape, I think you are having arrow flight issues. The arrows  should fly straight to the target with no porpoising or fishtailing. You should see nothing but fletch all the way in. My guess is they are way overspined. 45# shafts don't usually shoot well out of
#35 bows even when left full length. Bare shaft tuning isn't of much use with wooden arrows. You probably didn't want to hear this. My site may help you with tuning and making arrows. Jawge
http://mysite.verizon.net/georgeandjoni/
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: Bueskytter on July 06, 2008, 05:00:53 pm
I'm really surprised about this. I've been using POC shafts for about a year on a 60lb longbow, I've never had a single one break. Bamboo is a great material for shafts and is nigh indestructible, but it's not exactly a traditional material outside of Asia and Sub-saharan Africa.

Have you tried Sitka Spruce shafts? Their reputation is generally very good and I've had no problems with them.
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: El Destructo on July 06, 2008, 05:42:19 pm
I'm really surprised about this. I've been using POC shafts for about a year on a 60lb longbow, I've never had a single one break. Bamboo is a great material for shafts and is nigh indestructible, but it's not exactly a traditional material outside of Asia and Sub-saharan Africa.

Have you tried Sitka Spruce shafts? Their reputation is generally very good and I've had no problems with them.

I have Douglas Fir....Sitka Spruce and Ponderosa Pine...and they are all good till you hit a Stump or a Rock in the Ground...or another Arrow...and then they split...crack....or just break in two....
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: jape on July 06, 2008, 08:41:32 pm
jape, I think you are having arrow flight issues. The arrows  should fly straight to the target with no porpoising or fishtailing. You should see nothing but fletch all the way in. My guess is they are way overspined. 45# shafts don't usually shoot well out of
#35 bows even when left full length. Bare shaft tuning isn't of much use with wooden arrows. You probably didn't want to hear this. My site may help you with tuning and making arrows. Jawge
http://mysite.verizon.net/georgeandjoni/

Thanks George, after a year of bare-shafting dozens of arrows individually I certainly didn't want to hear that! Thanks for the link, I will read and try it. You are dead right about arrows when matched up wrongly - but the 45/50# shafts are out of a 45# bow. The 35# longbow bow has its own shafts 35/40.
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: benjamin on July 07, 2008, 12:57:53 am
the best shafts I've had so far are the poplar dowels at lowes and HD. My sitka spruce shafts are snapping all over the place, POC also stands for "piece of crap", and the oak I've tried makes me too nervious to shoot off my nuckle. I can't find any decent bamboo there,... I'd like to try shoots if I could find any around here. Until then, I self spine the poplar dowels from the bin and they usually shoot pretty good. The only time I've ever broken one was when I shot the nock off, and I was too happy about it to feel bad.
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: Hillbilly on July 07, 2008, 08:14:11 am
Quote
Bamboo is a great material for shafts and is nigh indestructible, but it's not exactly a traditional material outside of Asia and Sub-saharan Africa.

Our native US bamboos (AKA river cane, Arundinaria-a close relative of both Tonkin and Japanese arrow bamboos) are about as traditional an arrow material as you can get-the tribes living in its range have been using it as shafts for a couple thousand years, and as atlatl darts for several thousand years before that...........same could be said of POC outside the Northwestern US.
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: El Destructo on July 07, 2008, 08:36:21 am
I'll tell you what....if this Cane is as tough Shootin as it is Straightening....I am going to have a Blast with these Arrows!!!
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: Hillbilly on July 07, 2008, 08:48:48 am
Mike, once you get the hang of it, it's pretty quick and easy to straighten. It takes awhile to get the feel of it, though.
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: El Destructo on July 07, 2008, 09:34:37 pm
Mike, once you get the hang of it, it's pretty quick and easy to straighten. It takes awhile to get the feel of it, though.

I hear Ya....I straighten one part and make the next more snakey....I seem to be chasing the Snake up and down the Cane Stalk!!!
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: mullet on July 07, 2008, 10:31:16 pm
  Try straightening the crooks in the shaft, then straighten the nodes. See if that helps, I drove myself crazy doing what your doing.
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: Hillbilly on July 07, 2008, 11:04:39 pm
Perzackly what Eddie said. Start by straightening the sections between the nodes. Treat each one individually so that each section is straight-just look at each little internode section and act like the rest of the shaft isn't there. When you get all the internodes individually straight, then straighten the nodes so that your now straight sections line up straight with each other, and you will have a straight shaft. Also, especially at first, make sure that the bend you just made has cooled down before you start heating and bending another spot.
Title: Re: breaking tooooo many
Post by: El Destructo on July 08, 2008, 12:01:24 am
Gotcha....will try it this weekend...when and if I get a Moment to myself!!! Can't wait till I can retire!!