Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Kegan on June 26, 2008, 07:15:35 pm
-
If you want an explanation, Jurassic Park was on a few days ago ;D.
Anyway, the things were even bigger than elephants- about 20' tall, and six tons. So I think they'd need an even bigger bow and arrow than needed for elephant (100#, 1500 grain arrow).
So, how big? Since the heart/lung of the things were pretty high up (10-15 feet), the bow would have to be strong enough to toss the spear (the 5 ounce arrow) up there, all the wile you're at least 25-30 yards back (they do sem to like people-mc'nuggets!). So what, 150#? Or more?
The bow would need to be long, about 80" or so, with a long draw (30-32"), so the finished bow would be much like an Old War Bow, and since I like to make D bows, it pretty much would be.
So, for the fun of it, what do you all think would be necessary?
And yes, once I figure this out, I will start trying to make this stuff ;D
-
Well to be frank I think you would need a body like Conan's, implements of brass and no brain! But in the interests of the post and the survival of our species, I wonder if penetration or accuracy is the most important thing, how deep inside is the heart/lung, how thick is the skin? Would a thin, fast, sharp arrow be better than a big spear type?
Don't they keep a spare second brain in their tail or something weird?
Maybe a barbed, poisoned arrow (or ten) is the go!
-
By spear, I simply meant a long, heavy arrow for penetration (the ideal diameter would still be about 3/8"). Being as large as they were, I think that a single lung shot would be the best you could hope for without using a plane. I couldn't find how thick the skin, or how broad the body cavity was.
I was thinking poison, as you'll already be tailing the things for a while with a sinlge lung hit. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about them to concoct one tough enough for those brutes!
-
A ballista from a tree stand, shoot the eye into the brain. Joel
-
By spear, I simply meant a long, heavy arrow for penetration (the ideal diameter would still be about 3/8"). Being as large as they were, I think that a single lung shot would be the best you could hope for without using a plane. I couldn't find how thick the skin, or how broad the body cavity was.
I was thinking poison, as you'll already be tailing the things for a while with a sinlge lung hit. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about them to concoct one tough enough for those brutes!
uh, dont you mean running from the thing? i dont think it would run away cus a tiny critter stuck a tiny stick in its side. and i actualy agree with the balista idea. like useing a smartbomb to kill a tank. not totally nessicary, but the safest bet.
-
http://www.geotimes.org/mar08/article.html?id=nn_fossil.html
This small dinosaur had a very thick skin, 25 criss-crossing collagen layers is very tough. Apparently only one modern creature, the nurse shark, has a similar thick skin! It could be that this dino had evolved (yes, it happened) a thick skin for protection as it was prey, but also it could be that all dinos had thick skin and T-Rex had a skin like cured leather!
-
A ballista from a tree stand, shoot the eye into the brain. Joel
You might hit the former but miss the latter!
I once saw a bow that was used to hunt elephants. It was held by the feet and pulled with both arms. Of course atlatl darts were used too. Fiddler likes his darts 7-8 oz.
-
i dunno but ifin ya succeed in yer dino hunting. gimme a tooth or tow for ara heads. ;D
-
A .700 nitro express sounds better. ;D
-
A .700 nitro express sounds better. ;D
thats what i would want ;D
-
Kegan- You're describing the bows you always make. ;D
-
...hows out an eight guage shotgun. :o
-
Practice Practice Practice
-
Wel if I ever run across one of them T-Rex creatures, I'll just use me old trusty Winchester 67 and CCI stingers. My grandaddy said they'd kill anything! ;D Saw Filer
-
yup. i gots a winchester modle 94 3030. ben lilly said it would kill anything!!
(uh, dose anyone els even know who he was? or am i the only one?)
-
If any of you recall, the Marshall family often confronted the T-Rex from the mouth of their cave, in The Land of the Lost. I always thought they should make a ballista and kill him, but I guess they were too busy battling Sleestacks to worry about harvesting dino steaks.
In the time it would take you to build that kind of bow, why not just dig a big pit with giant punji stakes, lure it in, and so kill the dino?
You guys can borrow my catapult when it is done, though. :)
-
yup any weapon can kill anything
providing the person using it is capable of making the shot count,and dont forget perfect shot placement is also the key
heck i had a marlin model 60 .22 that could make one groups out to 150 yds with regular off the shelf ammo.
not that i would use it on ol' rexy there.
i,m thinking something more in the lines of a sherman tank for him.shoot him in the knee caps with that and he aint going no place fast >:D >:D
-
If T-Rex was anything like the CG one in Jerrasic Park, can you imagine trying to take perfect aim as he barrels down on you? A Sherman tank might not be so good....he's just flip it over if you missed, and wait for the snacks to come crawling out, sooner or later. The pit is much safer if you ask me. Can I patent it and sell it to dino hunters? :D
-
Well, a sharp broad-head in the kneecap would bring him down too, but I wouldn't want to get to the magick 20 meter mark though ... probably get told off for cruelty what is more by the Neanderthal League for Protection of Dino's, despite the foot-long teeth and claws! Back to the drawing board - explosive arrow heads, bolas arrows?
Kegan, you still think this is feasible?
-
Brothers, basically I would say forget about trying to penetrate the skin with anything that doesn't involve an explosion. No man even with a sit-down bow will most likely be able to shoot any kind of projectile big, heavy, and fast enough to do enough damage. Remember, T-rex was built to attack Triceratops and withstand blows from his 8-10 feet long, 10-12 inch wide horns. I don't think anything we throw at his skin will be much of a problem for him. Either explosives which detracts from our primitive fantasy, or 3 guys on both sides of him with killer aim and long thin supersharp broadheads stroke him right through each eyeball.
But what the heck, make the 300 lb bow with 2000 grain arrows just for fun :D
-
Brothers, this might need to be on a seperate thread but, I was thinking what kind of man it would take to standing up, pull back a 300lb bow and it brought something to mind--
Any of ya's ever read about the races of giant indians that were here when the Spanish began arriving, way before colonization? I have and by some Spanish accounts, they were extremely strong and shot superpowerful bows. I've read where some were 8-9 feet tall.
-
If a T-Rex is as tough as you guys say it is / was, a self bow just wouldn't do the job. The ancient Greeks, who developed catapults and ballistas, developed gigantic bows for war machines before torsion springs were invented. Some of these bows may have been 9 or 10 feet nock to nock, and certainly, that kind of power would be needed to kill the king of the dinasaurs. You'd need a system to pull the bow back, as well, like ratchets and pullies.
But what about the arrow tips? Could you smelt metals to go with such a bow in dino times? Or maybe gigantic stone tips? And would you fletch the arrows with dino feathers, since they may have been birdlike things?
And would they taste like chicken?
And would Rachel Welch be a guest of honor at the bbq in her fur bikini? :)
-
yup. i gots a winchester modle 94 3030. ben lilly said it would kill anything!!
(uh, dose anyone els even know who he was? or am i the only one?)
Yep, Ben Lilly was a tough, fascinating old dude. I used to have a book about him, but I don't know where it got to.
-
Hillbilly, didn't he have something to do with Teddy Roosevelt?
Dick
-
For a while now I'd been bouncing around in my head something like a crossbow, but more like a giant longbow set horizontally with a portable tripod and pully to draw. Even if you built a pit, having those big chickens around, you'd want something portable and not too heavy.
But instead of a pit with spikes, it would probably be easier to locate at funnel and at the end of it put a row of spikes held togther like a fence, that can rotate to pop up out of the ground when releasing a counterweight. Kind of like setting your spears against a charge. Youd want them to pop up so that TR does not avoid them and the pit you would have to dig need only accomodate the pole ends, not all or part of the TR. Digging a whole that big will kill you before the TR does. The poles would still have to be pretty heafty.
-
Hillbilly, didn't he have something to do with Teddy Roosevelt?
Dick
yeah. he was apointed chief huntsman by teddy, and offen guided him on bear hunts in the louisiana thickets. he hunted wilth a pack of hounds and was real, uh, like religious i guess about em. do an internet search on him. he really liked knives and made his own. also search the lilly knife. its pretty cool.
-
Fun topic. ;D
I think arrows with large cutting arrowheads (2-3" wide), aimed at the neck area, and fired by 5 strong men (w/150lb bows) at the same time, should put a damper on his day.
-
Oh yeah...and I don't think T-Rex was equipped to tackle Triceratops (really thick skin, etc). IMO, I think he was more of a scavenger. ;)
-
Has anyone done penetration estimates to various kinds of dinos?
I still think the Sleestack cross bows may have some effect on thunder lizards, or they wouldn't carry them around. I think they dug pits too. :)
In the 1950s movie King Dinasaur, these scientits stumble upon a deserted island full of dinos. They end up using a portable nuke to blow up the entire island after rowing away in a rubber raft (not a good movie, I admit). I image that may be "the only way to be sure." Points if you know what film that quote came from.
-
I was thinking it would be in the point. Somehting really narrow, like 1" wide, with a long blade (6"?). Of course, these were bio-engineered dino's, so we have metal and what not available (but obsidian is sharper).
I definately would want to use some foot bow, or a crossbow, or catapult. No fun there!
So far, a 150#-200# bow, 2500 grain arrow, with a wicked, narrow point for penetration. Hill killed a few elephant with one shot from his 115# bow and 1700 grain arrows, getting about 30" of penetration.
Of course, there's also the idea of shooting poison arrows. You would only need a 70# bow and 700-800 grain arrows to poke a little hole to get some poison in 'em. And you could shoot them much farther away than with the clean-blade set up. But, again, not nearly so much fun ;D!
-
Poison would take too long...you'd be dead and eaten before it can take affect. Remember what T Rex's teeth are like. I've seen an actual T Rex skull and foot in a museum years back...terrifying looking. Probably scarier than the movie.
Likewise, elephants don't eat hunters, and don't run 50 miles an hour as the chase you down. Come to think of it, T-Rex never had to contend with human hunters at all. Would you bet you could beat him with a hand held bow?
-
Dane, I would take that bet. I think I could kill him with a 40# bow. It doesn't really matter how thick the skin is if you shoot the eyeballs. A blind T-Rex is a dead T-Rex.
Also I think one of the most primitive weapons I can think of would be the most usefull. Why not a pike? If he was comming at a run it would be the perfect weapon. ;) Justin
-
Likewise, elephants don't eat hunters, and don't run 50 miles an hour as the chase you down.
They dont eat hunters, but I have read that they are fast and will chase you down. The last I read was something like Africans saying that they dont act likey prey, but rather enemies, what ever that means.
Probably smarter than TR.
JS, said pike, that is what I was trying to get at before, just it would have to be massive so it would not snap like a twig, not something you held.
JS, I'm not so sure a blind TR would be a dead one. It might have been half blind anway, and the movies say that its nose was beyond compare. It might have had smelli-visions.
-
ABS OF STEEL ;D
-
Just had a thought >:D;- if we are being consistent to the time, apart from having humans around, then there were no trees, just the odd cycad, fern or palm! Shouldn't have dissed Rudderbow's palm-bow thread so quickly ....
One of the things about humans is that in a group when being co-operative they can usually work well together, especially when it comes to creating grief or mischief for others. I think probably staked pits would have done it and also the seeking and stealing of dino eggs would have dropped the T-Rex population, we are very good at extinguishing other species.
However, many young chaps wandering the liminal alone or in peer groups would have come across the odd T-Rex and had to take a shot or two to divert or defend. Any big bow with heavy, sharp obsidian break off points would give some chance of running like f. and escaping. I doubt that T- Rex could keep up a sprint for long.
-
Okay, I just did some quick reading on the T rex, which means tyrant lizard. One theory is the eyesight of the rex may have been about the same as today's hawks, so shooting out his eyes may be a good idea. Of course, the size is pretty impressive, so you had better practice shooting up into the air at very tiny targets. Sue, the largest one found, was 42 feet long and 13 feet tall at the hips. No one is sure how fast they could run, but estimates are from 12 mph to 45 mph, which is way too fast for me. If they could continue that pace, they would simply tire you out. If it was pissed off, like maybe having an arrow sticking out of it's chest, it may run even faster.
Justin, would you really want to stand there and skewer one with a pike? Sue weighed about 6.8 metric tons. That is a lot of dino coming at you and impaling it self on your pike and then continuing to run over you. Heck, even King Kong had his hands full with that rex he battled :)
Maybe we should just stick to hunting Velociraptors, if you are crazy enough to book a trip with Pete's Budget Temporal Dino Hunting Guided Tours: A Dino Guaranteed, or your Money Back." I just read they were actually smaller than the movie showed them, about the size of a turkey, but of course, with that mean little claw, nothing to sneer at. Imagine how much fun nock overlays would be made out of velociraptor claws.
-
just read ben lilly's bio..... sounds like i should have been there with him the whole time..... one thing i would change though.... i would use a bow. he is truly an icon to us all
-
Dane- Hmm. If you're correct about their vision, then you would probably be able to do alot of damge to them if you got the eyes out first- and you probabaly wouldn't have to go very far over 100# to do it. Once it's blinded though, where would you shoot it to start getting it bleed out????
That would be one long pike. How about this- find a downed tree that stiff hanging or leanign over, use a chainsaw to sharpen it to a point, and then have the big ol' brute run onto that :D?
I'd be more afraid of them then Rex- no matter how small they are. A bunch of nastey little savengers screaming and running around you. Didn't they take on bigger herbivores? I think you'd be a snack by comparison :-X. Hmm. But an 85# bow could probabaly shoot through one and hit anoher one behind it... :D!
-
I could be wrong since I have never actually had my eye poked out, but I suspect a T-Rex would probably go into sensory overload and be his own worst enemy at that point. If a bow or spear can penetrate an elephant that stands up to a rhino horn why cant a spear or arrow penetrate a T-Rex?
The pike would only need to be 15' long. The head would actually set down lower than the hip if he was running. Much less if he were trying to eat a 6' human. Slide it under the jaw and into the jugular. The momentum of the beast would do the work. He can hardly get closer without driving the pike farther into the neck. Beside I watched the old movies from the 60s and I saw a caveman kill a T-Rex with a pike so I know it works. ;D ;D ;D Justin
-
Justin, a pike is a pretty big, tough fish, but I don't think I'd want to wade in on a PO'd dinosaur with one. ;D ;D
-
Oh come on Steve, a 15 footer ought to be a match for Dino. ;D
-
Y'all crack me up ! ;D A T-Rex huh ? Funny, he er she was probably BADDER than the" Boogey Man !" By the way anybody wanna try crocs in the tidal swamps.... salt water crocs that is ! ;D ;D ;D
-
Beside I watched the old movies from the 60s and I saw a caveman kill a T-Rex with a pike so I know it works. ;D ;D ;D Justin
Im convinced. Especially if R. Welch stands by to praise. http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/inmates-make-hollywood-prison-break/2007/12/18/1197740241757.html
-
By the way anybody wanna try crocs in the tidal swamps.... salt water crocs that is ! ;D ;D ;D
As a matter of fact I do. ;D How about a heavy bow and a spear for backup. 8) When does season start? Justin
-
When does season start? Justin
Probably after they get off the top of the endangered species list. ;D I was reading in the paper while we were in Charleston, SC a few days ago that one was recently found living in the surf near there, way north of their usual range.
-
Steve, was it a saltwater croc or an alligator? When we lived in Bluffton, SC there was large alligator that made frequent trips from a fresh water pond to a salt water river where we would hunt arrowheads...and he has to slide down and climb back up a 20" bluff in the process.
-
Justin, you make an excellent point. If his eyes are pretty good, then they would alos be sensitive. So you stick a ponty toothpick in there and he won't be so happy ;D! Hmm... a pike you say :).
-
Pat, this was an American saltwater crocodile. The island we were staying on had a healthy gator population, too-every puddle of fresh water on the island had a swarm of gators in it.
-
Were you on Sullivan's or Isle of Palms? The low country of SC has its share of gators. They love golf courses because of the water hazards and poodles! ;D Pat
-
Do you guys think hickory would hold up for a bow like this?
-
Were you on Sullivan's or Isle of Palms?
Seabrook Island.