Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: NOMADIC PIRATE on June 01, 2008, 06:59:05 am
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60" ntn, 58 # @ 27". simmetrical limbs with 1/8" positive, 1 1/2" of retained reflex, Zebrewood overlays, will wrap the handle with hemp, and spar urathane finish.
this bow came in a bit lighter than I wanted, but than again, I always mess up flatbows ::)
the wood is absolulely gorgeous, it's the more purpleish kind of Guava, can't really see it in the pictures >:(
Here's a sneak preview, I'll wrap the handle right now and take the rest of the pictures comes morning
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/005-1.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/004-1.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/003-1.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/001-1.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/002-1.jpg)
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(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/008-1.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/007-1.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/006-1.jpg)
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i told you this already, but man that bow is nice! cant get over how small thoes tips are...
Phil
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Man what tiny tips!! She's a beaut! Can't wait for rest of pic's....
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Nice bow Manny. Those tips are awesome!
Alan
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Another gorgeous Bow manny......you make them flow like water.....you are an Artist!!!!!!!.......Got to love them Tips though!!
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OK, waiting for more pics. ::) Love what I see already but how bout some action shots! ;) Another beauty, Manny. I believe that you and your guava bows has gone a long way in making folks think more about "other" locally grown bow woods. 8) 8) ...and what can be expected from a relative newby! 8) Pat
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Cool close ups, Manny, now how about some full body shots ;) I'll say it again. You are an artisan. I read a book once where the author talked about living in a house with no running water and no electricity. There were many elegant things in the house and it was quite comfortable. His quote on the situation was "Just because it is primitive, doesn't mean it has to be crude."
Your bows remind me of that. No bandsaw, no power sander. Much more "primitive" means of construction than I or many others use, yet simply elegant bows. I love them.
Stan
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Outstanding!!!
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thanks guys.
I'm drinking my fistcup of coffee, and trying to get my eyes open, wrapped the grip last nite, so I'll go out in a minute to take some real pictures ;D
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thanks guys.
I'm drinking my fistcup of coffee, and trying to get my eyes open, wrapped the grip last nite, so I'll go out in a minute to take some real pictures ;D
I hope that it a good Strong Cup.....you are going to need it!!!!!!!!! >:D
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As you will see, the 2 limbs don't match a bit ;D ;D
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/001-2.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/011.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/007-2.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/003-2.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/002.jpg)
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(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/005-2.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/006-2.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/004.jpg)
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(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/008.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/009.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/010.jpg)
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I've said it before and I will be repetitive......You are an Artist...this is Beautiful......I am trying really hard to get used to that Backing material....its growing on Me....I have to keep remembering that You live in Hawaii....and they like these patterns!!!!!!!
:o :o ;D :o :o
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Hey Mike, unfortunately we have no snakes here ::) ::) , nad Wal Mart hunting for tigers and leopards is the best I can do ;D ;D :o :o
Here's the full draw
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/012-1.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/013-1.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Leopard%20flat/014-1.jpg)
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dude, whats with the massive tips? :P
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Yeah, those tips are huge, ..I'm trying hard to make them smaller ;D ;D
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Great candidate for June Self Bow of the Month.
Gotta admire those tips.
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Manny, you have a gifted eye for how a bow’s lines should look. This bow is an excellent example of that. The way the fades flow effortlessly into the limbs, the suttle arch of the handle swell, the graceful taper of the limbs that end in those diminutive tips and the natural way the limbs flair at the tips. All of this understating the raw power of your weapon. Face it, you’re an artist dude… ;D
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Very nice Manny! So as not to repeat...what everyone else said! ;D
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Just got my license (paycheck) and I am planning a hunting expedition (going shopping) for some species to mount (on the back of a bow) at my local hunting preserve (walmart). Snakeskins are cool and all but my eyes are searching for other alternatives that the kids will like on their bows.
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really like your bows, manny!
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Thanks Frank,
stiknstring, Yeah those pubblic hunting grounds ;D
Thanks Greg
Gordon, thanks for the nice words.
thanks Don, and sorry for the extra work.
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Manny, You really are one very talented bowyer. You could not have read that piece of wood any better. Even with the twist and waves you dialed it in and created another beauty. I like the contrast lines along the side, very nice touch ;) and the grain and tips really tie everything together. Congratulations, Keenan
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Your bows are beautiful Manny. Great to see you posting some work.
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Nice bow Manny, as always. I've got to hunt down some of that Guava around here. I've found two trees so far. Ones in somebodies front yard and the other is at a house that burned down.
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Hope ya stick some hogs with that one too Manny ;D. that is one fine looking weapon - I gotta find some kind of weird wood around here that's great for bows, an ongoing sideline ;D.
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I love those needle tips. Great looking bow Manny. Justin
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Luvs guava bows Manny. Be they strawberry er yellow. Very nice work .............bob
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As everyone else outstanding, I'm wondering if anyone else is having trouble with the full draw pics their only loading about
half the picture ??? I'm sure your tiller is spot on Manny :) I just can't see it :'(
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I started to post about that Dana, but the mood of the thread was not right. IMHO what you see is the natural asym of such a design in a short bow, ie. the nock point does not bisect the string so the upper limb looks overly bent and the lower like it has a free ride. The string segments are also more obviously asym, which contributes to the effect. It works like this, the bow shoots great I imagine, but to me it looks "funny."
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Mimms, that's why I really dislike full draw shots from the tree.
No matter how you try you can't reproduce the 3 fingers drawing hand, or even the rigth position, and the hand pressure on the handle.
I tiller my bows to 18" on the tree, ......and the rest is in front of the mirror.
As you can see by the shape of my handles, they are made for heeling the bow, and the hook on the drawing string is still about almost 2" under the nocking point.
I always wander about those bows that loook perfectly tillered being drawn strait down in the middle on the tree,...how they really look when drawn by the archer?
The bow is actually symmetrical, you can see the difference on the limbs on the unbraced profile, the bottom has a more steady reflex, the top is more flat but than kick up towards the tip, you can see how at full draw the tips almost match in reflaxed shape, but still when drawn by hand the lower limb comes around more because of the heeling and higher placement of the drawing hand.
..BTW, you can't expect to much, I'm still a rookie bowyer ;D ;D ...I'll get better, I just need some time and practice ;D ;D
Ho yeah, the bow does shoot really nice :)
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Manny,
You make a good point about the two limbs not starting out equal. And also a very good point about the tree not recreating the actual forces at play when hand drawn. Please don't regard my comments a criticism. You got the chops son, for sure. Just that I'm predisposed to this particular observation, for whatever reason is seems to interest me. Perhaps because I was so perplexed by the issue in my own crafting.
Got a few projects in the works myself, after a pretty good little dry spell. I better lookout, I'm libel to have to walk the talk!
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Nah, nah Mimms, I like criticism, I have a lot to learn about this craft, when you and Lennie (what happen to Lennie by the way) and even Steve discuss bow design, I have no clue what you guys are talking about ;D :o ;D :o ...migth as well speak chinese :D
I just have a real dislike for full draw pictures taken from the tree, .....and real big reservations on perfect looking tillers, taken from trees.
I like where I am at the moment with my progress in bowmaking, but make no mistake I know perfectly well I have a long, long way to go and I listen a lot so I prefer criticism than suger coating too ;) ;)
So fire away ;D
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I'm not sure what others are seeing in your tiller. The string angle coming off the nocks is slightly larger on the top limb - which is what I would expect with a little positive tiller. And this should help distribute the work evenly between limbs when the bow is heeled at full draw. The tiller looks good to me.
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Just to be clear, there is nothing "wrong" with the tiller on Manny's bow.
What I observe in the full draw pick is that the upper limb bends more than the lower, and that the draw hook (nock point) does not bisect the string. This is inherent in every bow where the arrow pass is 1 1/2" or 2" above dimensional center. It is in my view slightly imbalanced because the upper limb is both shorter (the distance from the arrow pass to the string groove) and more strained (positive tiller) than the lower. I propose that having the nock point closer to dimensional center, particularly on short bows, helps to balance the load to the lower limb (made equal with the upper by virtue of arrow pass at center). Essentially folks give the lower limb the benefit, and thus deprive the upper limb, of the entire lenght of the "handle" in the initial layout, one they may have read or seen posted, and then don't ever take the time to work thru what the implications of this choice are in the finished bow.
Again, it's a fine bow and demonstrates admirably the so called "symetrical" design. I'm simply saying there is another, better in my view, way.
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Interesting Mimms, so basically you are a proponent of the assymetrical design rigth ?
What are the mesuraments you prefer ?
when I lay out my bows assymetricaly I put the center of the bow 1 1/2" above the center of the handle.
Mimms thanks for bringing the subject up I've being wandering about the assym VS symm for I wile now, and I was wandering if on symmetrical bows there should be no positive tiller at all.
Thanks
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I build my bows with asymetrical limbs. The arrow rest is 1" above the center of the bow. That makes the upper limb 2" longer than the lower. I also give the upper limb 1/4" positive tiller. I learned this from John Strunk. I think he does it because it more evenly distributes the work over both limbs. But I like it because it gives the bow better balance when carrying it in your hand - which I do a lot of when I am hunting.
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Very well done Manny,very nice bow ,love the tip and grip. :)
Pappy
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To be honest Manny my bows are all over the road, from arrow pass dead center to 1 1/2" above, to I don't even know for sure. Usually the longer the bow the higher above center. I'm not a slave to my initial layout, and often fudge a 1/2" or so in placing the arrow pass by shooting the bow after it's finished and then deciding. I may also pike a limb a little, recut a string groove or whatever if I get in pickle and that has an effect. To say I advocate the so called asym design might be a little strong, although I admit I speak to the topic more frequently than most. Perhaps more accurate to say I think I understand the difference, and see at least theoretically the benefit of bisecting the string on a shorter bow. And I can see the difference in my minds eye on full draw pics. Can you?
As I understand it MORE tiller would be required for the so called sym design (ie. arrow pass 2", or half the handle lenght, above center). Tiller's purpose is to offset the shortened upper limb, so you would conclude a more geometrically balanced design would result in a less shortened, and thus less weakened limb. So, the "shorter" lower limb or so called asym bow would require less tilller.
http://www.goarchers.org.uk/mechanics/
I've ciited this thing a thousand times but it's the only explanation I've found on the net. See the page [Bow Mechanics], [Tiller].
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O.K., let me see if I understand what you're saying (because I don't think I do)
are you saying the for symmetrical limbs would be better to have no positive tiller ?
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Thanks Pappy,
........and how rude of me, thanks Dana, Bob, Justin, cowboy, Ediie and Keenan.
I just got sidetracked ;)
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wow you make really really nice bows. i really like those tips too :)
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Nah not rude Manny just busy like the rest of us eh :)
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Manny,
I cannot say it more plainly than this.
"As I understand it MORE tiller would be required for the so called sym design (ie. arrow pass 2", or half the handle lenght, above center)."
But restating, no, sym limbs need positive tiller, as I understand it.
Actually there's a nuiance to thsi question perhaps other's can speak to. Positive tiller is used to offset the imbalance of having the arrow pass (nock point is really the important aspect but for simplicities sake lets stick to the the dimenions on the bow itself) necessarily above the fulcrum. But if the arrow pass is at dimensional center, versus the fulcrum, does this tend to mitigate the need for tiller, or have no effect at all, because the arrow pass is still above the fulcrum?
I know based upon my experience that the so called asym (arrow pass at center) bow does need positive tiller. In my experience less positive, but it's really such a small difference, like a 1/16" to an 1/8" or so, it's hard for me to conclude anything from it. Particularly since my bows rarely take over 3/16" of tiller. But I tend to draw with my middle finger, more like a 2 under, and high wrist the bow.
Sorry to sidetrack your thread Manny. But like you said earlier, there's just so many cheerleading threads a man needs to read in a lifetime, and having a little meat an potatoes throwed in can't really be counted as being all that bad in my view.
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LOL Mimms after 4 of your posts I still don't understand what you're saying :D :D ::) ::)
let me tell you something,..and this is a fact, I will never get to the level of some of you bowyers, because by nature I can't get interested ( or better, don't understand it ) in the tecnical side of the craft, ...when you say "string angle" that's allready chinese for me ;D ....most of the terms you used in your posts totally whent over my head ;D ;D
On PALEOPLANET quite often there's tecnical threads, I open them because I want to learn, but I quickly realise after a few post that I don't understand a word they say :( :( ,..needless to say, I don't open those theads after that :D :D
I'm more like,
it feels good...., it looks allrigth...., it shoots where I aim......., DONE !!! :D :D
BTW no sidetracking, I rather listen to the truth than any sugarcoating ;) ;) ;)
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I think you are jsut playing possum, which indicates an already evident degree of high intelligence and wisdom. ;-)
But if you do want to pursue some of these concepts, expressions, like string angle, I'd be happy to participate. String angle is simply the angle the string makes with the limb at full draw which necessarily relates directly to how the string acts upon the arrow on the loose. Generally the smaller the angle the better as it gives more mechanical advantage, like a lever. All else being equal, a limb with small string angle will outshoot one with a large string angle. When there is a large disparity between the upper and lower string angles, in my view whichever one sports the better string angle, generally the lower, is getting a free ride at the expense of the other. That's my whole point about having the arrow pass at dimensional center. It makes the string angles the same on both limbs.
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O.K., O.K., I'm getting there, but do you think that you'll get an even string angle when you actually draw the bow by hand ?
the arrow pass is still not at centre, and furthermore the string is drawn even further up that the arrow pass.
I'm not asking this to be a smart ass, I'm really trying to understand this, I never payed attention to it.
BTW,...did I mention I hate full draws from the tree ? ;D ;D
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(http://home.comcast.net/~dcm4/ex1(1).JPG)
Yes, the objective is to get an even, or more appropriately a MORE even angle. Remember everything is shades of grey here. You can adjust the geometry, the tiller, the nock point all to fit together, within reason, with lots of variation of each. I tend towards wanting both limbs to be as equal as possible on the return stroke, like a team of horses pulling together. I don't want one horse standing off to the side while the other is more dead ahead of the load. Seems like to me it makes everything more effecient having them pull together more similarly, along the same path, that is as near dead ahead of the load as possible.
I admit it is very subtle, but I can tell the difference between these two bows. One has the arrow pass at dimensional center, the other 1 1/2" or thereabouts above. Both 58" bows drawn to 28". Once you've had a chance to guess which is which I'll post the difference in string segments.
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I remember those bows ;D
The symmetrical one is the one on the rigth, It looks to me that it has a more shallw string angle on the bottom
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Ya the one on the right looks better ;D
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Looks to me like the bow on the left is at dementional center and the bow on the right is 1 1/2" above center, what do I win?? I prefer cupie dolls by the way. ;D Oh yeah and the bow on the right looks like a better shooter.
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Well you can lead a herd of horses' arse to water.... LOL
The one on the right is the "sym" bow. The limb segments are 92:98, the left is more centered, 92:95. These are millimeters measured directly off my monitor. Just goes to show you how small of an asymetry one's eye can detect.
The one on the right has a smoother draw, sports a better string angle throughout because it's bending more in the center, stiffer on the outer limbs.
Timo prefers the bow on the left. I don't care particularly for either, both being too short and heavy for my taste.
Sorry it to so long to get back to the thread. Actual life got in the way.
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Manny, Your bow building philosophy mirrors mine. 8) I don't get a lot of the technical stuff either and to me it doesn't matter why, just that it does! ;D I know its all important and without it wood bows wouldn't be what they are today but I will leave it to the guys that get it and gleam and absorb what I can. ;)
I prefer a symmetrical lay out because it is easier for me to see good tiller. For years I went with the
"1 1/4" above and 2 3/4" below center line" layout but today I lay it out equal. Pat
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Looks really great Manny, that guava has some really nice looking grain and character to it. its on my "wood to do" list. the back looks excellent, great detail - Ryan