Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: WhistlingBadger on March 05, 2024, 02:32:17 pm
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Well, here's my latest project. Some of you might remember I badly scorched one of the tips with some over-zealous heat treating. I scraped it down to sound wood and glued on a lamination from a hickory backing strap I had laying around. I'm backing it with dogbane fibers from just up the mountain here, processed while watching tv with my girls. :) Elk antler on the tips. Put two layers of fibers on the back; now letting it dry for a couple weeks before I start tillering.
(https://www.fishforums.net/attachments/img_0890-jpg.338112/)
(https://www.fishforums.net/attachments/img_0891-jpg.338113/)
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I remember that one WB.
I had some dogbane once. It does make nice fiber.
Bjrogg
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I remember that one WB.
I had some dogbane once. It does make nice fiber.
Bjrogg
I've made two-ply twine out of it, and it is seriously strong stuff! Probably would make a bow string if I trusted myself with that. Might try using it for sewing thread on my next leather project, though.
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Excellent choice for backing WB. dogbane is one of the strongest natural plant fibers around and will definitely make a bow string also. took the family to Gila cliff dwellings many years ago and was very surprised to learn that the people their used ladders and ropes made of dogbane to access the caves there . Strong stuff.
Please keep us posted as to how it performs, I have considered using it as such myself.
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Looks good. And yeah dogbane is awesome stuff. Can't wait to see it finished.
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Yea cool project and a good way to save the project. I’ve never used dogbane but on my list of things to monkey around with for bow strings.
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Nice, can't wait to see it all finished up. :)
Pappy
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OK, got this thing bending and had it to 55# at around 6" on the tree when the backing popped and an insta-hinge appeared. (Yeah, this is seriously strong stuff!) I got the pressure off it instantly, and the underlying wood seems undamaged.
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh_-jfIBCvyae2UOX44EDucciYxTziiClamFLzFCnerSwNtCm7hebO8TuEtjOBI4wZBIIPjkH0Chf72XUFDGJMRcV_q9rjiaRL0rFs23dN_ZCJvAxiaY05hOer3so0zrtvwiBIebXyVWUdUMiEltRZpwJ_m22QJ0iQZUvhAZaHH8eJ9gYrCYsV07BY5WKY/s4032/IMG_0909.HEIC)
Any ideas why this might have happened? And what now? Could I put another layer of fiber over the bad spot? Fiber backings are new to me, though I did screw up a sinew backing once.
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Hard to say WB. Maybe starved for glue??? I’ve never used dogbane it’s on my list of things to try out
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Hard to say WB. Maybe starved for glue??? I’ve never used dogbane it’s on my list of things to try out
You might be right. I also wonder if I mixed my glue too thin. I think I'll paint the whole back with a layer of glue, then put a couple of layers over the break. Then let it dry a couple weeks and continue tillering. If it breaks again, I might just peel it and start over. I wasn't as careful applying this stuff as I should have been. I think a lot of the bundles were twisted, so the back didn't lay down smooth and I wonder if the fibers didn't adhere well. That might be my problem too.
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What glue are you using? I've done 2 that I backed with dogbane and a couple others with sisal fibers and I used thinned tb3. These all adhered really well
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What glue are you using? I've done 2 that I backed with dogbane and a couple others with sisal fibers and I used thinned tb3. These all adhered really well
how did sisal compare to dogbane with the ones you backed?
did you back with fibers to help out an iffy back or maybe apply enough to act as a load carrying lamination, like a bamboo backing?
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Willie, both seemed ok, but the dogbane is definately stronger. Of those 4 bows I mentioned 2 have failed and 2 are still alive. The 2 that failed were tiller issues. The sisal bow that broke ripped right through the backing, but the dogbane one still had an intact back, just sort of folded as the wood failed. Not extensive in comparison, but the dogbane is certainly stronger.
These bows were backed not for performance, but rather as insurance against my rookie bow making abilities. They were also board bows and the 2 failures were both red oak.
I started a thread about these backings a while back and there were some suggestions on sisal by Joachim using hide glue and inducing reflex with sisal as it stretches more than the dogbane would. This might have some performance gains? Can't say I have enough experience with it to say though.
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What glue are you using? I've done 2 that I backed with dogbane and a couple others with sisal fibers and I used thinned tb3. These all adhered really well
I'm using hide glue aka knox gelatine.
did you back with fibers to help out an iffy back or maybe apply enough to act as a load carrying lamination, like a bamboo backing?
A little of both. This bow is hickory heartwood, and I don't have the patience to chase rings at this point in my life, so I decided to back it. The dogbane does seem to add some weight to the draw. It's basically putting a couple layers of wood back on.
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years a go I prepared a couple of dozen samples did some bend testing.
as I recall, 1/2 were hide glue and 1/2 were epoxy. in each half, 1/2 again were backed with flax and 1/2 again were a synthetic backing
both backings were stronger than the wood and the more backing aplied, the earlier the sample took set.
both hide glue and epoxy performed the same at typical bow stress levels.
In the future, I would use a fiber stronger than wood to reinforce an iffy spot on a back.
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Well, I repaired the broken backing. Got one crunchy sound that I think was just excess glue, but fairly smooth sailing since then.
Here it is at 40# on the long string. Target weight is 55#; I plan to tiller it to 60# then scrape it down a bit. Hopefully it will stabilize around 50# after it breaks in.
Opinions, please: I'm seeing that the right limb is a little stiff. Left limb had a bit of a hinge just off the fade, but it's looking better and curving more evenly now. What say you?
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgbBD0IgQGC23SMphh3RpAAUKqOojLiEnI0YA5jNtCbu3WhM7WOivlgsyxUu208Nz2kLK91B4kktB1FBo-9A0ySWA1AFmwUUJDV_U301lisvu_iOTDcQRw5F_NG8SQMo_pSWzIz1_vZlWaOqEOIT6uPJ6hco8elKWhgo9kpcYa-iHAMoNA8EyqaR3CHAMI/s16000/bow.jpg)
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Well, I repaired the broken backing. Got one crunchy sound that I think was just excess glue, but fairly smooth sailing since then.
Here it is at 40# on the long string. Target weight is 55#; I plan to tiller it to 60# then scrape it down a bit. Hopefully it will stabilize around 50# after it breaks in.
Opinions, please: I'm seeing that the right limb is a little stiff. Left limb had a bit of a hinge just off the fade, but it's looking better and curving more evenly now. What say you?
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgbBD0IgQGC23SMphh3RpAAUKqOojLiEnI0YA5jNtCbu3WhM7WOivlgsyxUu208Nz2kLK91B4kktB1FBo-9A0ySWA1AFmwUUJDV_U301lisvu_iOTDcQRw5F_NG8SQMo_pSWzIz1_vZlWaOqEOIT6uPJ6hco8elKWhgo9kpcYa-iHAMoNA8EyqaR3CHAMI/s16000/bow.jpg)
Yes I would agree with that. Some scrapes off right limb and see where you are at then. Maybe little mid limb scrapes on the left one too. Looking good though. Be interesting to see how that backing holds up for ya this time.
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Moved the tillering tree inside the garage and attached it to studs with 4" screws, instead of just into the side of the house. It occurred to me the other day that if it popped loose at 50# of draw, it was going to hurt, and possibly make my face look even worse than it already does.
Got the thing to about 45# and the bends are looking decent, before it made another scary crunch sound. No visible tears in the back, but I think it popped loose in one spot. Maybe I missed a spot degreasing? I don't know. It's about the same place that it broke before, so maybe it just isn't connected down there. Watch this and see what you think.
https://youtu.be/rlt-TBpWSDA
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I think your assessment is correct. The sounds difference is pretty evident something came delam under there. It’s looking great though. How are you glueing this down? Are you using hide glue and what strength. Also are you ensuring a good size coats are done prior to adding the backing fibers. I’m saying this as I’m assuming you would do the same size coats for dogbane fibres as you would with sinew fibres. I size coat with very thing watery hide glue till it gets shiny when dry. Sometimes depending on the core and how pourus it may be this could take several thin coats to sink in deep into wood core. This helps immensely with adhesion of backings like fibers. Just a thought.
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I think your assessment is correct. The sounds difference is pretty evident something came delam under there. It’s looking great though. How are you glueing this down? Are you using hide glue and what strength. Also are you ensuring a good size coats are done prior to adding the backing fibers. I’m saying this as I’m assuming you would do the same size coats for dogbane fibres as you would with sinew fibres. I size coat with very thing watery hide glue till it gets shiny when dry. Sometimes depending on the core and how pourus it may be this could take several thin coats to sink in deep into wood core. This helps immensely with adhesion of backings like fibers. Just a thought.
Yep, I used hide glue. Not sure how to explain what strength...I try to mix it about as thick as pancake syrup. I did size the back with a single layer of glue; made it nice and glossy.
Here's what I think might have happened. The first time I started bending it, the backing broke. I suspect I had a seam in the same place on both layers and that's why it broke. (that's just a guess) Whatever the case, when it broke I think it delaminated for a few inches. Gluing a couple layers over it fixed the break, but didn't fix the delamination.
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Ah yes. Makes sense.
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You know, I shouldn't have posted about this in two different threads. Thanks for responding to both. ha ha
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Well, got this beast back on the tree today. Had a hinge developing where I put the patch, so did some work around that. Had a few crunch sounds early on; hopefully just glue cracking. Was about to string it up for the first time when one of the antler tips popped off. Glued it back on with some TB3; will string it up tomorrow.
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Glue may not be dry enough.
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Well, I got it braced and it looked really nice, but the glue delaminated in the same spot again.
Glue may not be dry enough.
On the tips, you mean? The bottle says you can stress joints after 24 hours. Or do you mean the hide glue? I figured two weeks was plenty of time here in dry Wyoming.
Anyway. Might put this away and work on something else for a while...
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Got back to work on this. Have it bending to about 6" at 30#, tweaking the bends, about 2" to go before I'll string it...when I noticed that there's a spot where some of the fibers have popped loose on the opposite limb, not the same spot as the previous failure. Man.
I think what I'm learning here is that hide glue doesn't adhere all that well to dogbane, compared to sinew. It takes a ton of glue, and wrapping with string or ace bandage, to make sure it won't come loose. Or just use diluted TB3, but I really want to keep it as primitive as possible. (I used TB3 on the tip repair, so maybe it doesn't matter)
So. I guess I'll reglue this section, wrap it, wait another couple weeks, and get back to work on it. In the meantime, I have some nice, reflexed juniper pieces and a bunch of sinew lying around...
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I think what I'm learning here is that hide glue doesn't adhere all that well to dogbane,
you may be correct as animal collegen probally has an affinity for sinew, nevertheless, hide glue has proven itself with cellulose in other applications.
what if you let the dogbane soak in the hot glue pot for a while and get soft? will it squish into shape better?
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I think what I'm learning here is that hide glue doesn't adhere all that well to dogbane,
you may be correct as animal collegen probally has an affinity for sinew, nevertheless, hide glue has proven itself with cellulose in other applications.
what if you let the dogbane soak in the hot glue pot for a while and get soft? will it squish into shape better?
Probably. I think even soaking it in warm water to soften it up would help. But I think the real key is using a lot of glue, then wrapping it tightly for several hours to make sure it really sets up.
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Well, dang it, got this thing all dried out and started bending again. Had it almost to brace, pulling about 35#, and crack, the backing broke. In the same place. Currently steaming it again to remove the backing from that limb. I think I'll peel the backing off that entire limb and redo it, leaving the other one, since it seems to be solid. I'm sure all this steaming has completely undone any benefit the wood got from heat treating. >:( Tempted just to pull off the whole backing and rawhide back it, but first I don't think it would be powerful enough to hunt with (and I'm kind of counting on this bow to hunt antelope this year) and second, dang it, I really want this dogbane idea to work.
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Totally understand this frustration. This is the principle of the thing now. You’ll get it sorted out.
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Totally understand this frustration. This is the principle of the thing now. You’ll get it sorted out.
Thanks, Dave, that commiseration makes it easier to keep trying. ha ha ;D
Got the old backing steamed off, sized the back, and started again. A few things I'm doing differently: I'm soaking the fibers in warm water before applying to make them more cooperative. Using smaller bundles or individual fibers, instead of big, wide bundles, and overlapping the ends more to avoid weak places. Running each fiber bundle through a fine-tooth comb to remove broken and twisted fibers, and straighten the ones that remain. And using more glue. Lots and lots of glue. Finally, covered the first layer in plastic film and very tightly wrapped with an ace bandage for a few hours until the glue sets up, just to really get it to adhere to the wood.
If this doen't work?
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/RlSyZxH2ILlCwtz7Dg/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952pgjsd00e841x1ea2m9uuniu1l5ar6oas58zhjagi&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
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Haha that’s too funny. If you do decide to blow it up please do us all a favour and film it. That would be too funny. Well tragedy kind of funny. You know what I mean. Not trying to be offensive….
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Haha that’s too funny. If you do decide to blow it up please do us all a favour and film it. That would be too funny. Well tragedy kind of funny. You know what I mean. Not trying to be offensive….
;D ;D ;D
(https://media.istockphoto.com/id/955124060/photo/nuclear-bomb-explosion-mushroom-cloud.jpg?s=612x612&w=0&k=20&c=64Wac4ttC1DgBeBvCmYHWB56OyckJGNiO3AjsIe8c2c=)
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Haha that’s too funny. If you do decide to blow it up please do us all a favour and film it. That would be too funny. Well tragedy kind of funny. You know what I mean. Not trying to be offensive….
;D ;D ;D
(https://media.istockphoto.com/id/955124060/photo/nuclear-bomb-explosion-mushroom-cloud.jpg?s=612x612&w=0&k=20&c=64Wac4ttC1DgBeBvCmYHWB56OyckJGNiO3AjsIe8c2c=)
(lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol)
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good luck with the reapplication, a few pics as you go would be nice........
if worst comes to worst you could always offer it to the bow gods lest something like this comes to your neighborhood
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Finally done hunting and back to work on this thing. Going to full brace today. Pulling about 30# at 9". No crunchy sounds so far; I think I might have finally gotten this dogbane glued down. Finding myself rather distracted by the smell of roasting turkey. Happy thanksgiving! :G
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Tillering. Something seems a little off, but I can't tell what. Guess I need to dig out Eric's gizmo and see what's up. In the meantime, any thoughts???
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjTSWhIlCs9w0s52cDR9S6VfjsC-qh39_jP0w7Zu0bBm7wT6OZ2UWaesgwXqfCd7M_xlB6LlPWlxL6xPiXpUIHJRQn55boJlDnTlT1cECl7hTueM3yZwNOqvjBGqDKJYG7ehMe21DYztroUrs236-V0XbM_Wc95MXfI5Km8069LPmQJUYP8IQIEILYXmTw/w300-h400/IMG_1455.HEIC)
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Looks pretty good to me, maybe bending a little more in left limb but over all pretty good. Pappy
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Looks good so far. I agree with pappy might need little more bending on inner of right limb.
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Well, I was puzzled but I am no longer. I had the limbs bending fairly evenly, then suddenly the right (top) limb was bending much less. I was examining the backing and found a crack in the backing on the left (bottom) limb. Dad gummit, or words to that effect. I might just steam the backing off of this, slap some rawhide and snakeskin on it to make it a kids' bow (the neighbor down the street wants me to make one for his kid for christmas), and get on with my life.
I hate to do this, gentlemen, but I think I'm going to have to declare dogbane a failure as bow backing, at least for me. I could try again but I just don't know how to do it any better than I did.
As WC Field said, "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no use being a $*#& fool about it."
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Haha that’s too funny. If you do decide to blow it up please do us all a favour and film it. That would be too funny. Well tragedy kind of funny. You know what I mean. Not trying to be offensive….
;D ;D ;D
(https://media.istockphoto.com/id/955124060/photo/nuclear-bomb-explosion-mushroom-cloud.jpg?s=612x612&w=0&k=20&c=64Wac4ttC1DgBeBvCmYHWB56OyckJGNiO3AjsIe8c2c=)
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Sorry to hear that WB. I was rooting for ya on this one. You really gave it a go and didn’t quit.
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Thanks, Dave. I have several juniper and rocky mountain maple staves, and honestly I'm ready to get on to other projects. I learned a lot from this, so the time wasn't wasted. Thanks for all the help and encouragement.
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Well, this bow is now in its third incarnation, this time as a rawhide-backed, hickory heartwood kid's recurve. Right now it's pulling about 15# @ 20". I'd like to work it all the way to my full draw of 27" so the kid can grow with it, but I'm nervous about pulling it that far. These limbs are REALLY short compared to anything else I've ever done (55" ntn), and I'd hate to break it. On the other hand, the limbs are about 2" wide and the weight is light, so it's probably OK...thoughts?
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OK, finally stamping this project as finished. Turned out rather nice, in spite of everything. Pulls 14# @ 23", and really zips out some phragamite reed arrows with 60g heads and pheasant primaries, held on with elk sinew. (SH) Handle wrap is home-tanned elk hide, also held on with elk sinew. Elk antler tips and arrow rests; backed with pronghorn rawhide and rattlesnake skin.
I have no use for a bow like this, and no way I can recoup anything like what this is worth, at least without putting it in an art gallery in Jackson. ;D So I plan to donate it to the local RMEF chapter to auction off at their local fundraising banquet this month. Hopefully it will make some money for elk habitat and make a kid happy, too.
Should have turned the bow around so all the interesting stuff wasn't in the shadow, but I didn't feel like standing in the snow. Will try to get some better pics later.
(https://www.fishforums.net/attachments/img_1561-jpeg.360577/)
(https://www.fishforums.net/attachments/img_1562-jpeg.360578/)
(http://[https://www.fishforums.net/attachments/img_1563-jpeg.360579/[img][img]https://www.fishforums.net/attachments/img_1564-jpeg.360580/)
Don't know if you can see it, but this hickory heartwood is some gorgeous stuff.
(https://www.fishforums.net/attachments/img_1565-jpeg.360581/)
(https://www.fishforums.net/attachments/img_1566-jpeg.360582/)
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Well it looks good WB. I know you didn’t get what you were hoping for, but I’m sure you learned a lot from it.
Curious why you didn’t try sinew after the dogbane experiment didn’t work?
Bjrogg
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Well it looks good WB. I know you didn’t get what you were hoping for, but I’m sure you learned a lot from it.
Curious why you didn’t try sinew after the dogbane experiment didn’t work?
Bjrogg
Thanks, it was a good learning experience. The decision not to sinew back was a couple of things. The backing broke on the same limb a couple times, and I did a lot of scraping on the opposite limb trying to even out the bend, not realizing I was fighting a partially broken backing. So the bow got way lighter than I intended. But the main thing was that, by the time I finally gave up on the dogbane, I already had a nice juniper bow roughed out. I've heard so many glory stories about juniper and sinew, I decided to put the work into that instead of a bow I was never going to be completely satisfied with anyway.
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Thinking that’s a really good reason WB
Bjrogg