Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bjrogg on December 08, 2022, 10:33:11 am
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I have this little Osage sliver I made into a bow awhile back. I first braced it at the last Primitive Archery meet in Marshall Michigan.
I’m pretty sure Knoll would remember it as he was sitting right next to me and I could see the fear I his eyes and see the evasive manner he used to protect his vitals.
I did some more work on it when I got home and got it shooting really nice. I forget the weight now but it spit a 600 grain arrow out surprisingly quick.
It isn’t going to hold up to heavy shooting though so I set it aside thinking maybe I might someday sinew back it.
I have never sinew backed a bow and hoping to avoid a bunch of learning it the hard way lessons. I thought I’d show it to you before I started.
I’m not sure it’s even a candidate. Knoll’s reaction was very understandable. It’s very narrow. Twist will be a huge concern.
I know it’s not ideal that I shoot it as much as I did. I’m sure I had a couple hundred arrows through her at around a 23” draw.
Always amazed at how little wood can make a bow.
I’m probably going to be too busy to get at it right away and even have trouble keeping up with replies but I look forward to your thought and experience.
Here’s a couple pictures
Bjrogg
PS knoll miss you buddy. Hope all is well
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It’s not very wide
Bjrogg
That’s a arrow next to it
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looks good give it a try,,,
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I think that would be a perfect candidate for sinew backing, Brian. :OK
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We’ll looks like that two votes for it’s a go.
I will have to make it one of my priorities this winter
Bjrogg
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Make that three votes. I think it would work quite well. It wouldn’t take that much sinew either.
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Perfect candidate for an indian plains style type of bow.
At least you know everything is lined up correctly shooting it.
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Go for it BJ. I'd be interested in seeing the finished product.
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Heres another vote buddy
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That design is perfect for a sinew back.
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I think you shot this one Brian at elm hall one year. If I remember right it's about 46 in Long maybe an inch wide and maybe a half inch thick. Sinew backed with sinew string. Somewhere in the mid-40s around 22 or 23 in. Shoots with authority but I never figured out how to be consistent with such a short bow
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I think you shot this one Brian at elm hall one year. If I remember right it's about 46 in Long maybe an inch wide and maybe a half inch thick. Sinew backed with sinew string. Somewhere in the mid-40s around 22 or 23 in. Shoots with authority but I never figured out how to be consistent with such a short bow
That's always been my hang-up with really short bows: How to be consistent without an anchor point. I think I'd have to go back in time, pull a Ryan Gill and start shooting when I was a toddler. It's a shame, too, because a bow like that would be awfully handy in an antelope blind.
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usually when I cant be accurate with one,, really the bottom line is I havent put in the time and effort I did with longer bows,,
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usually when I cant be accurate with one,, really the bottom line is I havent put in the time and effort I did with longer bows,,
100% agreed.
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Yeah I remember that one Paul.
23” is almost my normal full draw
Bjrogg
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Well the vote seems to be unanimous.
I think I’ll be pounding sinew on my lunch break
Bjrogg
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Don't mean to hijack your thread BJ but I have a sinew question that I need some answers on. How thick do you take the sinew down to when breaking it down. I know the more you tear it apart it starts to come apart in short pieces. So, would something like a #2 pencil lead work or can it be bigger or should it be smaller diameter wise.
Piddler
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I always enjoy the process of sinew backing short bows like this! It always amazes me when the sinew starts curing up and setting.
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there is some nice info on Pats thread,, but its pretty forgiving, finer seems to be the preference
yes its like magic when it starts to dry
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Don't mean to hijack your thread BJ but I have a sinew question that I need some answers on. How thick do you take the sinew down to when breaking it down. I know the more you tear it apart it starts to come apart in short pieces. So, would something like a #2 pencil lead work or can it be bigger or should it be smaller diameter wise.
Piddler
Ask away piddler. I’ve got a few myself.
It seems like I remember Dbar soaking his sinew an processing it hydrated. Seems like I remember him saying it really worked good
Brad I was planning on keeping an eye on Pat’s build.
Bjrogg
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Well I got a little time to do some sinew processing. I’m not done and I’m thinking this whole project once I have everything gathered and ready is going to take several hours I will need to pretty much dedicate to applying the sinew. I’m not sure how I’m going to pull that off, but worry about that when I get there.
I am wondering how you guys prep though?
I have never actually used leg tendons before. I have them broken down to where I can easily separate the individual strands.
It was harder to get to this point with the leg tendons than back sinew, but I’m surprised how long and uniform the strands seem to be so far. I think I will be using it for other projects in the future.
I hear washing in dawn dish soap and combing with a brush.
When do you do this? And do you get to individual strands prior to this?
So far just working on it in my limited spare time. Here’s what I have so far
Bjrogg
Started by getting to here
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Then I started separating and have it all to where I can easily separate now.
Bjrogg
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Yep. Prepping sinew isn't an easy task but the end results are very satisfying. Looking really good BJ.
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you almost there,, :)
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Looks like good stuff you got there bj. I’ve personally tried the process while wet and I found it does work but is sorta messy sticky stuff when wet and harder to handle I found. I did notice little less waist but not enough for me to have the benefit of working the stuff dry. To me I find the dry working this stuff better. It separates good so long as you got good quality tendons or back sinew. Some of the back sinew I use from moose and elk or Buffalo is quite thick similar to leg tendons. I pound it all with a 16” piece of muscle wood sapling about 2” diameter. I use a small maple stump to pound onto to break up. I used to use a metal hammer but found I waisted more material. Also resist the urge to speed up the drying but putting it in the oven or dehydrator. It doesn’t end well. Let it air dry. I waisted a lot of good sinew trying to rush it. Here’s a couple pics of the dog brushes I use to get the separating fibers done initially. I then use a standard wire brush from there all while dry. The other big benefit of working this sinew dry is measuring it with a good scale. Also measuring for length. It hard to fully know your weights of sinew while wet. It’s important to get as equal weights on each limb. Obviously this makes for better balance in limbs. I’ve seen guys just place it on randomly in groups of strand bundles and maybe this works out for them but I personally like the methodical approach with careful measurements dry getting consistent lengths of the strands. It just work out good for me this way. I use dawn dish soap as it’s mild but good for cutting oils out well. You’ll know it’s good when it’s almost squeaky when you get it good and wet pull it through your fingers. I had some elk sinew that was quite good but had a pronounced red look to it after being dried. I pounded it well and separated it all up well and had a pink tinge to it. After washing it all up with dawn it was white as flour. Don’t wash it with hot water either. Use Luke warm water. The finer you can get the strands now the better finish you’ll end up with in the end and less air voids in the dried sinew. More of an esthetic thing I guess but still want your sinew nice and tight fitting of the strands together. The wrap help with this a bit too. (I’m going to add this reply to my post about sinew also). Best of luck bj!
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Yep. Prepping sinew isn't an easy task but the end results are very satisfying. Looking really good BJ.
Thanks Steve I sure hope so
Bjrogg
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Thanks Brad I do think you are right as far as the sinew goes. I think I should be able to separate the strands out fairly easily now.
Applying it to to bow might have to wait a bit
Bjrogg
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Thanks Dave I was hoping you would give some advice.
I did wash the tendons in soapy dawn dish water when I first harvested it. That really helps with removing some of the sheath that surrounds it and a lot of the fat.
It does still have a little
If I understand correctly next I should continue separating it and then wash with dawn? I’m thinking I will have to comb it out then, get it straight and let it dry again. Or should I just wait until I’m ready to apply it to wash it again?
Hoping to avoid learning things the hard way.
Bjrogg
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I always use back tendons. So much easier, but, still a ton of work. That stuff is looking really good BJR.
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cant wait to see the finished product! (-P
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I always use back tendons. So much easier, but, still a ton of work. That stuff is looking really good BJR.
I always use the back sinew for my other projects to Drums. I remember talk with Matt W and he said he preferred the leg sinew. I think I can see why now. It is definitely easier to get the back sinew, but I like the evenness of this leg sinew and the length is pretty decent.
Bjrogg
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cant wait to see the finished product! (-P
Me too Russell, but don’t wait up.lol
I’m going to have to gather some other stuff too and it’s going to be a problem finding the time to do this job, but I’m going to give it a try.
Bjrogg
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you can do it a little at a time,,
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Thanks Dave I was hoping you would give some advice.
I did wash the tendons in soapy dawn dish water when I first harvested it. That really helps with removing some of the sheath that surrounds it and a lot of the fat.
It does still have a little
If I understand correctly next I should continue separating it and then wash with dawn? I’m thinking I will have to comb it out then, get it straight and let it dry again. Or should I just wait until I’m ready to apply it to wash it again?
Hoping to avoid learning things the hard way.
Bjrogg
BJ. I would let it dry well now after you gave it initial wash then pound it good to loosen up your fibers and separate by hand and use your combs or wire brush to get it to hair like strands. Then I would weight it in matching bundles for each limb by weight and same length. Wash it again after soaking it in warm water in your measured bundles in separate tubs. In the mean time you would have sized your bow back surface really well to prep for sinew and let dry. Sizing is many coats of very thin glue 5%. I keep my bundles in the little separate tubs with water till ready to put down on my limbs. I squeeze out little of excess water place on hard smooth clean surface like a counter top and comb it while wet to get fibers aligned and somewhat flat. I work on one limb at a time so that my glue doesn’t gel too quick on me before I get my bundle on the bow. Only but 30% glue layer on one limb at a time as you want to glue to be pre gel state when you apply your bundle to that limb. I take the bundle in hand and dunk the bundle into the 30% glue kept hot in double boiler. I found doing half at a time is less messy. I use a large wide mouth mason jar for my glue and after dunking half of my bundle I use my finger to lightly press the bundle against the inner wall of the jar to squeeze out excess glue. Repeat for remaining half of your bundle the lay it down. Move fairly quickly but not panicking. Have a little warm water nearby to wet your fingers to smooth out your bundle. I’ll sometimes use my standard plastic comb to keep the fibers aligned after laying bundle. Repast for other side. I place a smaller shorter bundle to overlap the longer bundles at the handle. Save your longer sinew bundles for final layer if doing multiple layers. I find doing 2-3 thinner layers allowing to dry hood in between layers goes the best. About a week or two this time of year should do it for each layer. My second layer is already pretty much dried after a few days. It’s good to wait for a week or two between for good measure though. I’ll find the thickness to dry time formulas rule of thumb and post it here too. I’ve got it here somewhere. This is basically from Adam’s book on ottoman bows.
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Here’s the small section from Adam’s book detailing dry times and thicknesses…
“As the sinew and glue dry, the
moisture travels through the layer
by diffusion. For a bow with one
layer of sinew about 1mm thick.
the time of drying is commonly 1
to 2 weeks, depending on ambi-
ent humidity. The time of mois
ture diffusion through the layer
increases with a square of thick-
ness. It means, if 1mm thickness
requires a minimum of 1 week,
then 2mm require 2 squared
equals 4 weeks. Then 3mm
requires 9 weeks. The bow's
sinew is actually 4 or even 5mm
in some places, for example the
limb sides and possibly the grip.
4mm will dry in 16 weeks and
5mm in 25 weeks - six months,”
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Thanks Dave.
I really appreciate your response. I know I have a lot to learn here. I have never used hide glue so just figuring that out I’m sure will be a learning experience. Speaking of hide glue I still need to get some.
I did wash the sinew when I harvested it a couple years ago. It’s very dry now. I think my next step will be more separating and combing to get it hair like. Also weight and bundling.
In the meantime trying to get some hide glue. And set up some type of double heater.
Gotta few other things I have to do this weekend. I will magically transform into a Jolly St. Nick several times in the next ten days. Everyone knows how busy Santa gets this time of year
Thanks again for the support I’m thinking Santa will put you on the nice list.
Bjrogg
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Thanks Dave.
I really appreciate your response. I know I have a lot to learn here. I have never used hide glue so just figuring that out I’m sure will be a learning experience. Speaking of hide glue I still need to get some.
I did wash the sinew when I harvested it a couple years ago. It’s very dry now. I think my next step will be more separating and combing to get it hair like. Also weight and bundling.
In the meantime trying to get some hide glue. And set up some type of double heater.
Gotta few other things I have to do this weekend. I will magically transform into a Jolly St. Nick several times in the next ten days. Everyone knows how busy Santa gets this time of year
Thanks again for the support I’m thinking Santa will put you on the nice list.
Bjrogg
No problem at all. Glad to help. As for hide glue you could make your own but it is very time consuming I found. It’s novelty wore off pretty quick. I just buy mine from 3 rivers archery. It’s the granular stuff and it holds very well. The mix instruction say 1:1 by volume that come with the glue. If buying from another place just stick with 1:1 ratio by volume for mix or basically all I do is put enough granular glue in my mason jar and put just enough water to cover the granular. Works every time. The other measure that works good too is by weight. I general use 2:3 ratio of dried glue to water by weight. This is what I stick with for horn glue ups. For sinew I go a little lighter 1:3 by volume. Some may say this is too light but I like it for sinew. Not all my glue in in small granular. My sturgeon glue is in bigger squares so I use the weight ratio instead. Still works good. Basically looking for a consistency of a med to light syrup thickness when hot. As you let it sit in double boiler it will get thicker as it looses moisture. Just tiny bit of water to get your consistency back to where you want. For my sizing ratio do this by volume again to get your 5% for at least first few coats. Doing the math it would be 1:20. This may seem ridiculously thin but you want it basically like water to start with for sizing. Then go to 1:10 ratio for rest of sizing coats. Heat up with radiant heat your limbs to really soak in the thin glue for those first few coats. As you get used to the glue and mixing you’ll get a good eye for the Color and consistency you want for subsequent bows. It’s not as mystical as it may appear. Good luck with it. Here’s my simple basic double boiler set up. The last pic is my latest haul for back and leg sinew.
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Thank Dave very helpful information for someone like myself.
Santa definitely has you on his good list
Bjrogg
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Thanks from me as well Dave. Lots of good info. Gonna try one myself before long.
Piddler
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Interesting thread. Maybe y’all can convince me to try one. My problem is patients. I’m sure it will turn out way cool.
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I say go for it. It’s got some work involved but the results are great when done right. It’s like natures fibreglass. There’s just something about the process that connects with me in some weird way. Can’t quite pin it down but I dig it!
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Was a busy weekend with birthday party and a magical transformation into JollySt Nick.
I didn’t have much time to process sinew but I experimented a little and hard coming up with something that looks as nice as yours Dave. I can see you have the process down to a T.
I say go for it to Arvin. You’ll probably still finish it before I finish up that bow from that stage you sent me.
Bjrogg
I was just looking at my bows and when I looked up I saw this in the mirror
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Hahaha. That guy is everywhere!
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I’ve been working on sinew when I get a chance. I think I made pretty good progress.
It seems like everyone said they used back sinew and and previously that’s what I have used whenever I used sinew
I’m kinda liking this leg tendons sinew now the further I get breaking it down.
The pieces are nearly the same length. Back sinew might have a few longer strands up the center but then shorter on the sides.
I haven’t actually uses these yet but I think I’m done breaking it down until I use it now?
I basically have it separated into a couple strands till about a half inch from one end. There I left it to hold bundles together. If I need it I can pull it off like a sticky note
I don’t know if my plan is a good one but I can adapt it if I need to
Bjrogg
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Looks like good stuff!
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That’s some nice looking sinew. Lots of work but we’ll worth it when you end up with a nice sinew-backed Osage bow. Good luck with your build
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I did it back in 2008 and was 1" wide it turned out well, a distroyer. )P(