Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: TimmyDeNorCal on December 04, 2022, 06:08:09 am
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So, I must have missed the original post when DC posted his Boo Yew RD bow (as of today, Dec. 4th 2022, it is around page 72 or so)...but I came across it earlier today.
It seems that at the end of the responses on that post the general consensus was that it did, in fact, appear to be the first natural materials bow to break the 200 fps @ 10 GPP barrier...
...BUT, I have heard next-to-nothing about it since. I guess I had figured that the bow would be tested in a more official manner - maybe by Badger?? - and then the official reports posted for all of us here (and beyond) to revel in his achievement.
But I didn't see anything more. Either way, it is an amazing achievement, and I commend DC for his unflappable nature and tremendous results. I just was curious if we finally had an all-natural 200+ fps performer in the midst or not...??
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I’ve heard of and know of a few in the ballpark over the years. Several years ago lebhuntfish made the Fury that if I remember right was at the 200fps mark when he made it. I don’t think Pat comes in here much anymore though. But all the 200fps bows I’ve heard of lose that initial speed pretty quick to break in but still settle in the 190 fps area, which is still screaming for a natural material bow. Natural material bows seem to settle into a speed over time.
Kyle
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I did see “The Fury” post. Great bow, great profile. I guess the draw weight was higher than the bowyer thought, so his numbers went down a little...but it was still screaming around the upper 180s or even 191 or something, if I recall correctly.
I was just really curious how DC’s BooYew RD bow turned out...in the end, after any additional testing. Because that bow seemed to be holding up fairly well.
I know the wooden bow tends to drop some speed after its first 20-50+ arrows or so, so the 200fps barrier is even more difficult a task than the number suggests, considering the materials at play. My best is a hackberry self bow RD that I got to finally hold about 2.25” of reflex...it started off around 181, 182 FPS...and I got all excited, of course...and then by the 3rd chrono session (and the 40th arrow or so) it settled in at 175fps.
It’s so hard to conduct valid testing, too. So easy to underdraw, overdraw, get erratic readings, poor lighting, too much lighting, and so on.
But seriously, any bow that even approaches the fabled 200 is an amazing accomplishment. I just was curious what the final take on that BooYew masterpiece ended up being...
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Also - I think the bows that flirt with 200 will be lower draw weight bows, like DC’s BooYew.
It just seems that 30-40# bows respond better at the 10GPP standard. It might just be my experience, but I really do think that higher draw weight bows suffer at 10GPP more so than 30-40#ers. I know it has been discussed before, but the 10GPP might be handicapping higher draw weight bows.
I don’t know have any empirical data on my opinion, but there seems to be something going on with the strain levels 50#+ bows experience that don’t seem to translate their draw cycle into the same speeds that the lower weight bows seem to attain. Of course, maybe my 50#er+ bows are just poorly tillered, or poorly designed, but they shoot well...I just cannot seem to achieve the same chrono readings that the 40-42#ers can.
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It’s so hard to conduct valid testing, too. So easy to underdraw, overdraw, get erratic readings, poor lighting, too much lighting, and so on.
This is a huge hurdle to get over. I don't doubt DC's last bow did hit 200fps under his testing conditions, but there is no way it would have when shot off fingers in general use. DC was super meticulous about his testing and did everything he could to get consistent results and maximize what those results were.
This isn't a knock on him at all, he was trying to find out what his bows would do under optimum conditions and he worked hard to create those conditions. He used a shooting machine that allowed him to just draw the bow in one smooth motion and have it release exactly at 28" with no pausing or hold at full draw at all. He always shot indoors in his basement and used two chronographs to provide redundancy on the results.
None of this replicates general use of a bow by human hands, but it does show exactly what the bow is capable of at peak.
It just seems that 30-40# bows respond better at the 10GPP standard. It might just be my experience, but I really do think that higher draw weight bows suffer at 10GPP more so than 30-40#ers. I know it has been discussed before, but the 10GPP might be handicapping higher draw weight bows.
That's interesting because I think I've seen more people go the other way and say heavier bows have an advantage for max speed.
Mark
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I absolutely agree that DC did everything he could to test his bow(s) accurately. Hopefully I did not come off as doubtful of his measures, I only meant to inquire into any additional testing, or a final agreed chrono reading, because the post seemed to be heading that way. And, of course, I never came across any more discussions on that amazing BooYew RD masterpiece after the original post.
And likewise, that’s interesting that you, Mark, have seen the exact opposite of my lighter-draw-weight-performing-at-higher-levels theory. Maybe I am just completely off-based, but it just seems like every higher DW bow I test - mine or not - hits a quicker wall speed-wise...
...but, then again, Simon/Simson has a pretty heavy Osage recurve showcased on his site (66-70# or so, I think) that popped 185+fps! That’s such a dern heavy arrow at 10GPP.
I dunno...the speed chase captivates me...still. And there are so many ridiculously talented bowyers floating around this site, so I’m sure there are plenty of bows knocking on the 200fps door at any given time. I’ve just got to jump into the backed-bow game so I can at least play in the parking lot while the pros work out their kinks on-field.
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Timmy. I’ve also noticed that with my bows. My 50# and under bows are my best performers as far as speed testing gpp is concerned. I have several 40-45# bows that outperform gpp wise then my slightly heavier bows at 48-55lbs. There does seem to be a threshold that I’ve noticed also. The only thing I’ll say is this. There are almost an infinite number of variables that come into play when it comes to testing speed that I will not even attempt to list them all here. We would be here all day discussing them and debating them all. Obviously the design of the bow matters a whole lot in its speed. One thing I will say that I’ve noticed that may have an influence On your theory is that we as shooters tend to have better/proper form when shooting lighter poundage bows. Some may say this has little difference but it does matter in my opinion. The release will likley be better, crisper, cleaner. The torquing the bow may be less. Less plucking on release also with lighter weight bows to name a few. The only way to eliminate some of these factors is to use a trigger release shooting machine to remove these human elements and get consistent readings. Then you could more confidently see if the theory holds. My gut tells me based on my own bows is that it does.
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Thanks for reminding... I bought one of DC's 200 fps bow, got it and it is really nice bow! It is now here in Finland, waiting for testing. I had problems with my shooting machine and then came other "too much to do" -reasons, so this has forgotten. I really have to take this bow back to high order of priority.
I known that it is difficult take all variables into account but I will try. I want to be very precise and objective. I hope that around the end of the year I have time for this kind of project.
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We indeed miss DC on here. I have been fascinated by his approach and tried to get the 200 myself. Some of the bows were 190+ but never 200. I also copied DC's design but the results weren't even close to 200 🤔 I then lost interest a little in this actually pointless challenge and instead set my goal in making a smooth accurate simple and durable longbow. I was very surprised by the speeds I got with these 67-68" longbows. My latest test on the shooting machine gave me a solid 198, 197, 196, 196 with 10gpp and a draw of shy under 28" and 212fps for 7.6gpp. I'm pretty sure there is a 200fps-bow amongst these untested bows in my shop. If not it will be possible to make one with only slight adjustments. And yes, they drop over time. The prototype I'm shooting since spring now settled in at 185fps. And yes, lower drawweights clearly allow better results on wooden bows. And yes, in my shop yew as a belly constantly outperforms tropical woods and osage. I will take a video of the next testing and let you know. Cheers
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Sweet looking bows Simk! The closest I got to this myself was my hickory sinew and horn bow. It got to 197fps at 10gpp on initial speed testing then it settled in at 189, 191fps after several shots. It’s reflex settled in at around 7.5”. The only other bow I had come close to this was a 5 piece bamboo short bow at 194fps at 8.33gpp. There were things I could have done to speed up my bows that includes my arrows but I didn’t. Taking the human element out would likley make the difference.
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I think I remember he did, but wanted someone else to confirm it,, thats all I recall,,
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And yes, lower drawweights clearly allow better results on wooden bows.
nice bows simk.
the bows in the pic seem to indicate you really dont need much special in way of recurving when just a little flipping of the tips will do.
on lower weights vs higher weights:
given many speed breaking bows are often 67-68" long and tend to draw 28' or so...
is there something about these proportions along with the typical density of wood that makes the lower weights perform better? a sweet spot so to speak?
or stated another way. if you were to design a 60# bow to shoot just as fast, and made of the same materials, would the dimensions and draw length need to be proportioned different?
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I think there might be some in the proportions that would need to be different , I am just guessing..
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I have the DC bow in my possession. I need to ship it back to him. But yes his bow did settle in at 200 fps. He was very careful about the testing and used a shooting machine. The bow appeared to be a Mark St Louis design. DC made several and he was struggling to get a bow that didn't take set. That is where they loose all the speed. I believe this bow is 41 or 42# if I remember right. I have never had a bow settle in at 200 fps. I have had a few in the 190's but not self bows. I think 186 was my best ever self bow.
Several years ago I did an experiment where I wanted to see how fast a completely fresh bow would be. I tillered the bow out to 23" and never drew it past there until the test. I extrapolated the full draw weight so it could have been slightly off. Anyway. On the very first shot, it hit 215, the second shot about 211 and then 203 and it kept going down all the way to 157 and it had lost a lot of weight. I reweighed it and adjusted my arrow weight and it had settled in at about 176 I think. This was an osage super recurve with about 12" of backset. I think it ended up with 4". of backset. I had extra wide inner limbs and only had a very small portion of the limbs bending. I built 2 of them. One of them did get a world record in womens flight but nothing to get excited about. If I get time I will retest the DC bow before I send it back to him.
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wow cool thanks so much for the info
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My best 42 lb bow is sinew Osage sapling. With a 420 arrow it shoots 160fps. You guys are in an elite class for sure. It is amazing what can come out of a piece of wood properly built. Hats off to all of you that press the envelope.
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This thread makes me feel better about mid's 40's draw weight with better designed bows and somewhat lighter arrows.
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Many archers have no use for a chrony, and I understand that, but for bow building, or even testing a glass bow it can be a valuable tool. Before getting into wood bow building I owned and shot, and chrony tested a vast array of popular glass bows. With my 26 inches of draw with a glass bow, and with 45 lb. glass bows I was never able to hit 170 fps. with a 450 gr. arrow. I haven't done it yet either with my wood bows, and it is clear to me that I won't, so that 200 fps mark is very impressive to me,as well as 170,180,190 fps bows.
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And yes, lower drawweights clearly allow better results on wooden bows.
The more I think about it, the more I think all the bowyers I have heard say that heavier bows are faster might be making FG bows. This does make some sense to me because they have tip weight problems with FG lams and a higher draw weight may help overcome that somewhat.
Thanks to Badger for the update on DC's bow.
With my 26 inches of draw with a glass bow, and with 45 lb. glass bows I was never able to hit 170 fps. with a 450 gr. arrow.
A shorter draw is a real handicap when it comes to speed.
Mark
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Ya I know mark. When my son shot my same glass bows at 29 inches of draw their was a big difference in arrow speed, but that is OK. It is what it is. I never needed more than 150 fps bows for hunting.
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Ya I know mark. When my son shot my same glass bows at 29 inches of draw their was a big difference in arrow speed, but that is OK. It is what it is. I never needed more than 150 fps bows for hunting.
I agree, there is nothing you can do about your draw length and you just have to work around it. That was for the people that don't realize draw length makes a major difference in arrow speed even at identical draw weight.
Mark
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this sinew osage bow,,55@ 26 180 fps with 500 grain arrow,,9.09 gpp
this just one example but if the bow is designed for the shorter draw, and reflexed,,, can be quite impressive
even at 25 was shooting pretty hard,,
the Sioux bows with 23 inch draw would shoot hunting weight arrows close to 180,, I dont have my notes,,,but the arrowo was bout 450 grains and weight of bow over 55,,,
dont let the shorter draw discourage you,,
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The point I think DC wanted to make is the efficiency pound for pound in draw weight of bow and grain weight of arrow fps speed.
A trigger release is hard to duplicate with the fingers.
I've come close myself also and keep a few around to enjoy them also.
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this sinew osage bow,,55@ 26 180 fps with 500 grain arrow,,9.09 gpp
That's excellent performance for a short draw. If you took that same bow and re-tillered it to the same weight at 28" you would most likely find it is even faster.
Mark
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Brad not discouraged. At most I can handle 45lbs. I'm old, and feeble. I know a heavier bow with longer draw would help speed, but with good shot placement my son shot an 8 pt. buck this year with one of my horse bows that I made for my grandson at 11 yds that expired at 60 yds. I chronied that bow, and arrow at 135 fps. 200 fps at 42lbs. is plain awesome with a wood self bow. Major companies today are making super recurve bows with state of the art limb materials striving to get that kind of speed.
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Mattock,, the bow was about 54 inches,, sometimes when trying to do that,, some of the reflex pulls out and its a wash,, shooting about the same,, but you could be right,, I think a little longer bow would hold the 28 draw a bit better,, since my draw is about 25 or 26,, I dont tiller them out that long unless its for someone else,,
Bassman,, I think your string may be a bit heavy,,but 45 @ a shorter draw should work fine for hunting,, have you tried something in the 54 inch length, I have good luck with them,,for my 25 inch draw
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Ya Brad...44, 46, 48, 50, 52 54, 56, and I have a couple 38 inch sinew backed Osage bows. The longer ones draw 25, but some of the shorter ones draw from 18 to 23 inches. A guy gave me a Osage stave that was really long, and he had one end butchered with a band saw. I got 56 inches out of it, and put it on a 4 inch reflex form. Gave it a good heat treat , and sinew backed it. It had some checking on the back. After that I got my fingers operated on. Trigger fingers. Four of them are cut. When they heal I will finish the the bow God willing. I might make this one 50lbs, for 26 inch draw, and get somebody to shoot it through the chrony. My strings are either 10 strand B55 or 8 strand D97 on my bows. I will test this one with an 8 strand D97 string.
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sounds good,, hope you heal up soon,, :)
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Ya I know mark. When my son shot my same glass bows at 29 inches of draw their was a big difference in arrow speed, but that is OK. It is what it is. I never needed more than 150 fps bows for hunting.
So true. For hunting Shot placement is key and having heavier arrow for good penetration on large game. Chrono Speed is just one indicator really. More importantly can you hit what your aiming at with enough penetration. There is a balance of good accuracy, decent speed and heavy hunting arrow with most of the weight up front. I don’t hunt with anything lighter then 550grains. I bump up to heavier when shooting heavier poundage bows 50lbs up. There are fast lighter weight bows relatively speaking that have higher gpp speed then hunting weight bows but I wouldn’t personally use them for big game. I’ve seen some 35-39pound bows that have higher gpp numbers but penetration becomes an issue on big game like deer, hog or moose. Might get away with it on deer if good shot placement. Much better results with slower heavier draw bow that has decent speed slinging a good heavy arrow with good foc weight distribution.
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I have the DC bow in my possession. I need to ship it back to him. But yes his bow did settle in at 200 fps. He was very careful about the testing and used a shooting machine. The bow appeared to be a Mark St Louis design. DC made several and he was struggling to get a bow that didn't take set. That is where they loose all the speed. I believe this bow is 41 or 42# if I remember right. I have never had a bow settle in at 200 fps. I have had a few in the 190's but not self bows. I think 186 was my best ever self bow.
Steve,
When Jordan flight shot that bow a few years ago, she immediately commented that it shot like no other bow. She still talks about how it shot! Unfortunately, at the time we hurriedly threw together a couple of random beat up flight arrows for it. We had no time for tuning or proper arrow matching which I believe would have made a huge difference. I’m sure there is much untapped potential in that bow.
I believe this bow was a legitimate 200 fps at 28” draw with 10ggp arrow bow. I very carefully followed how the bow was tested, asked many follow up questions, and I couldn’t find any obvious issue to say otherwise. 95% of the time there is a testing issue with high speed claims. Usually it is use of unverified weight scales for the bow and arrow, or using an inconsistent draw reference point (such as measuring 28” from the bow back), or drawing it to a different draw length than the one it was measured at, or relying on hand shot results instead of machine shot, but I couldn’t find any fault with DC’s bow. I consider DC’s 200 fps bow legitimate and an incredible achievement!
Alan
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Alan, I should probably ship the bow back to you.
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95% of the time there is a testing issue with high speed claims.
Thanks Alan for being critical :) ..and getting me off my comfy couch!
I checked my shooting machine again - and of course the drawlength wasn't set according AMO standard. It was measured from the pivot point what means my measurings weren't "shy under 28" but pretty percise 29" drawlength. All other variables were correct. The speeds in fact were measured @ 9.2gpp, not 10gpp (taken in account higher drawweight at 29").
I'm still very happy with these longbows which I did not design for max. speed. I will maybe make one with heat treated belly laminates; seeing some more potential in there.
cheers
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Mattock,, the bow was about 54 inches,, sometimes when trying to do that,, some of the reflex pulls out and its a wash,, shooting about the same,, but you could be right,, I think a little longer bow would hold the 28 draw a bit better,, since my draw is about 25 or 26,,
I think you're right on a bow that short. I always make mine around 66" and I draw close to 28", so they have some draw length leeway, but that one is designed around your draw and probably should stay that way.
Mark
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Mark, sometimes I am shooting the bow through the chrono as I tiller,, and an increase in draw usually increases the speed, if I tiller it out another inch and no speed increase,, I know im not gonna get much more,, if any,,,kind of readched the limit of the bow,, then I keep in mind where that happend and design my next one accordingly,, I have pushed the limit on some longer bows even to 32 inches,, but the speed doesnt go up as much as you would think,,
maybe if I adjusted the proportions,, but as we know,, getting to 180 and above is pretty tricky,, when I make a bow for my draw,, say 25 inches and its in the 170 or high 170,, I feel pretty good about,,it,,
these are mostly sinew backed,, I made a bow for Jeffer,, and his draw was close to 29 inches,, the stave was great and had some reflex,,self bow, it was close to 180 fps,, arrow little lighter than 10gpp,,, ok looked at my notes,, shot it at 28 inches about 56# and 512 grain arrow,, 181 fps,, I think thats my best self bow I tested,,I never tested it at 29,,, it was not heat treated at all,, no corrections,, just like the stave came out,, osage
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I believe this bow was a legitimate 200 fps at 28” draw with 10ggp arrow bow. I very carefully followed how the bow was tested, asked many follow up questions, and I couldn’t find any obvious issue to say otherwise. I couldn’t find any fault with DC’s bow. I consider DC’s 200 fps bow legitimate and an incredible achievement!
Alan
Alan
How was the28" drawlength measured? AMO? to back of bow?
@all
was there a spec to measure the 28" in the original challenge?
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thats a good question,, I think I remember to the back of bow,, but Alan or Steve would know for sure
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Alan
How was the28" drawlength measured? AMO? to back of bow?
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I recall feeling pretty confident that DC’s bow ended up meeting the AMO standard, which is a draw of 26-1/4” from the deepest part of the grip. However, I think the test specifics were spread out over a number of different posts. There was a lot of checking and rechecking and refinement. For example, rechecking the chrono used by shooting through two chronographs at once, refinement of a shooting fixture, etc.
It is unfortunate that the AMO standard adds a 1-3/4” offset to a 26-1/4” draw length, and then calls it a 28” draw. We don’t do this with our measurement of brace height. This has led to endless confusion over the years.
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Alan, I should probably ship the bow back to you.
Steve,
It would be cool to see what this could do if systematically matched to a set of new top notch flight arrows. It takes some time to do all this, but it would be pretty cool to see the full potential.
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Glad to see this post.
I’ve been thinking about DC lately and wondering how he’s been.
He added a lot to this site.
If your out there DC I hope all is well
Bjrogg
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Thanks BJ, I think about you every time I have a can of Bushes Beans. ;) I'm doing well. Alan contacted me yesterday and said my name had popped up here. Well, I couldn't resist poking my nose in. I think the "Quest for 200" just burned me out and I just got to the point where there was no interest in making bows any more. I tend to do a hobby for about ten years and then move on. My last ten or so bows hovered around 195-200 and I couldn't tell from one to the next what the difference was. When you're aiming a 1 fps gain there ain't much difference. Every bow was a crap shoot and i was just accumulating more and more bows that never got shot. The SCA group would take some but then I would have to re-tiller them to be 30-35 lbs and that was kind of defeating. There's still 48 bows hanging in my hall. As for the 200fps@10gpp I do believe that I made about 4 or 5 that Were honestly in that range. I'm waiting patiently for Tuomo to test the one that he has just for a little confirmation :) :) No pressure Tuomo ;)
Steve, there is no point in sending the bow back to me. It would just join the others on the wall. I remember giving it to you in one of our last conversations so it's up to you, but it would be nice to see Alan mess with it. Maybe Jordan would want it. I was pleased to see that the record she set with it held this year. It's my 15 minutes of fame. I have a copy of the results out in my shop and I look at it every so often.
Anyway, I took up model ship building. I'm scratch building a model of George Vancouver's Discovery. While I was making bows I cultivated some Hazel suckers for bows and when I quit making bows and took up boats I harvested the Hazel and used it to make the ship. I've been working on it for just over a year and I'm maybe halfway. At least ships don't pile up in the corner as fast as bows did.
So that's it from me.
Don
Oh Mark, how did those bows I sent you work out?
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Great to hear from you DC. Sure glad you’re still eating bush beans.
Totally understand where you are coming from
I’m a lot that way myself
Would love to see your model ships in the campfire section.
Take care and Happy Holidays
Bjrogg
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Oh Mark, how did those bows I sent you work out?
They are safely stored for the moment. All my arrows have vanes so I have to pick up some with fletching and I've been so busy with the new house and acreage yard projects I've hardly shot anything the last year. Next summer will change that, with the house and basement done and a decent little archery range area set up. Once I get a bow rack done I will definitely be hanging a few there for people to see, they are just too nice not to admire regularly.
Good to hear you are still doing well,
Mark
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Great to hear from you DC. Sure glad you’re still eating bush beans.
Totally understand where you are coming from
I’m a lot that way myself
Would love to see your model ships in the campfire section.
Take care and Happy Holidays
Bjrogg
All my pictures are too big. Maybe look here
https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/hms-discovery-1789-scratch-build-in-1-48.8325/
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Oh Mark, how did those bows I sent you work out?
They are safely stored for the moment. All my arrows have vanes so I have to pick up some with fletching and I've been so busy with the new house and acreage yard projects I've hardly shot anything the last year. Next summer will change that, with the house and basement done and a decent little archery range area set up. Once I get a bow rack done I will definitely be hanging a few there for people to see, they are just too nice not to admire regularly.
Good to hear you are still doing well,
Mark
Good to hear Mark
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DC great to hear from you,, happy holidays,, :)
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Pretty cool ship your building there DC
Really glad you stopped by
Bjrogg
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Thanks BJ
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hope you using primitive tools,,, ;D
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Nope :)
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Quite an accomplishment DC.Amazing amount of details in that ship building.If you get enough hobbies over the years you can revisit them.That's what I do.
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Hey Ed. I still have some of that brain tanned you sent me. I haven't repeated a hobby yet and at 75 I don't have much time.
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Congratulations, DC!
Unbelievable accomplishment.
I started my descent back through the pages of PA.com's "Bows" forum, which I perform every now and then, just to marvel at all of the amazing bows posted here, and I missed when this post started to really take off (I was on page 597 of posts).
I think in DC's strict adherence to absolute validity, he kind of discarded his own accomplishments...which is a testament to his strength of character, in my opinion. Just about all of the people I find myself forced to be around these days would be bragging 24/7 about hitting 200FPS, on 6 different social media platforms, to anyone and everyone (even though they probably didn't even build the dern bow themselves)!
And DC built it and hit 200 FPS with it.
But, man, somewhat of an anticlimactic revelation...
...we should be honoring DC, right?? While I am happy that he has found a new hobby, it just seems a little wrong to me to just let the man slip away into model ship-building without some honors and celebrations?!? ;D
* Also - I know it has been discussed before, to some degree, but I think a publication needs to be created that accumulates maybe the top 50 all-wood bows of the past 10-15 years, if for nothing more than posterity, but I'm sure we would all attach much more value to the booklet than that! I picture a coffee table-quality book, showcasing all of the amazing bows created with all of the advancements/re-discoveries, etc. that have been propagated over the last 20-30 years or so. Maybe it would need to include 100 bows, who knows...but it would be a book** that would ALWAYS stay on my coffee table!!
** Of course, the cost of the book would be high, being that it would be largely comprised of full-page color photos...so it is probably just a pipe dream. I always assumed the lack of color photos in the TBBs was due to production costs, and I'm sure Hamm, Baker, Comstock, etc. would have appreciated seeing their works in color just as much as the rest of us would have, especially considering how difficult it was to discern just what the hell was going on in some of those dulled-out B & W pix!! BUT, all that being said, maybe it could still be done...on a small scale, with help. I just worry about the pictorial proof of all of these amazing bows will disappear (like the older pix from older posts have already done, being "deleted by admin," or whatever it says on the posting).