Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bassman211 on November 10, 2022, 11:15:52 am
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why?
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Your tiller or design is flawed.
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Or there's too much moisture in the wood. if you live somewhere humid you may need a hot box and you should consider heat tempering your next one before you tiller it out too far. But none of that will matter if your tiller and/or design is off, like Pearly said.
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I second what they said. I’ve made some bows with hhb from around here and it’s hard to find straight ones. If you do get it right it makes for a screamer of a bow. Super hard after heat treatment. I try to fix most of my limb twist and such using a caul form during heat treatment. They ended up super thin after getting them to the weight I wanted. Get moisture down below 10% before heat treatment if you can and get less checks in limbs. Very strong wood if you can find straight ones. Don’t give up on it. I kept mine around 1 3/4” wide or under on limbs. Did you have to draw knife the bark off or did it slip right off? The white woods like a pristine back. Keep us posted
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I have made 4 attempts. 62 inches long 25 inch draw for 40 to 45 lbs. . 1.5 at the fades to half inch at the tips. Same technique. 2 shoot good ,and 2 developed frets. I have, also made 4 bows with the other horn beam (blue beech). All are shooting fine. These bows were made over a period of a year. Both woods dried the same length of time, and made in the same way. Same length, and same poundage, and good tiller. Thanks for the tips guys. Could be the design, and it could be the moisture. Maybe both. I have one more I am working on right now, and I am going to get the wood under 10 percent moisture before belly heat treat, and make it a flat bow style.
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I have never had a bow with high MC fret or chrysal.
If the frets are spread out over a large area of the limbs then it is a design issue ...too narrow or too short.
If the frets are localized to smaller areas then the tiller is off...too much bending there.
Hard to tell about tiller without photos.
Just because the tiller "looks" good doesn't mean it is a good tiller for the stave.
Jawge
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it could be the wood or you,,need more info,, but interesting
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George like Dave said to much moisture with heavy belly heat treat with this wood may be counter productive. Maybe design to, but I don't think so. I have made many bows with my technique , including black locust, and many white woods, and never have fret problems any more including white birch, and walnut. Brad, the log is pretty straight, and was long enough to get 7 staves at 62 inches in length. 5 inch non working riser with 2 inch fades. The outer white wood varies in thickness from end to end ,and when finished their is some heart wood on the belly. I don't know if this is common with this wood, or not. First time working with Hop hornbeam , so it may be a learning curve for me. I have more staves, so I will get it right eventually. I wanted some insight from those of you who are well versed with this wood. Thanks again for your trouble shooting tips. I will keep them all in mind. This try will be a flat bow design with a trapped back, and some other method mods.
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+1 of what George said.If the tiller is good before heat treating it should stay ok with no issues.That's all depending on the character of the bow also.Overly charaterish bows can be more susceptible.
I personally don't like heat treating bows with a lot of knots in them.
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Batman, frets go across the grain on the belly side.
If the wood is too wet when heat treating that will cause drying cracks which are almost always with the grain.
Don't ask why I know so much about chrysals and frets. :)
Jawge
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Correcto George...Could it be you cut your teeth with bow making with BL????
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could we see a pic
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Yes sir, Bowed. Yes, BL will teach you how to tiller properly. Jawge
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Sometimes tension fractures caused by reflecting can be mistaken for fretts..just saying
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I cut a small diameter HHB many years ago and started making a longbow out of it after seasoning it for a year. Had to quit on it because it started to chrysal badly. Not too often HHB chrysals but it does happen
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I cut a small diameter HHB many years ago and started making a longbow out of it after seasoning it for a year. Had to quit on it because it started to chrysal badly. Not too often HHB chrysals but it does happen
Haven’t seen you on in awhile Marc. All woods are not the same even in the same species. Great Osage and no good at all Osage. Arvin🤠
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Mark you and selfbowman may have some thing. I have another stave floor tillered ,and straightened on a 4 inch reflex form. The wood is at 12 percent, and wide enough to make what I want. The reason I asked the question is that this wood seems to fret if I look at it wrong. Unlike the blue beech, or many others white woods that I have worked with are far as that goes. Not having experience with it I asked the question. It is in the birch family, but different genus. It gets high marks from many on here. Always had a tough time finding it were I live. A friend gifted me the log, and I was excited to make a few bows from it. As far as tillering goes I have no problems with black locust George, and Ed. I did with one bad wood log years ago. since then I have made some of my best shooters from black locust.Thanks guys for more info.
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Good for you, Bassman. I like BL too. I had problems with it in the beginning of my bow making journey but ash more so. Jawge
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If a friend gifted you the log, do you have any idea how it was treated once it was cut?
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Yooper ,yes. I split the logs in half, and put them in my basement at 62 degrees, and 65 percent humidity a day after it was cut.. After 10 months I quartered the staves, and started making the bows at 13 percent :( >:(t moisture content. Bark was left on till then. All seemed fine until I detected some very small frets in 2 of the bows after shooting them.
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do you think the reflex is causing to much strain on the wood
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Brad it doesn't on any of the other white woods, but it could with this wood. I don't really know. Have you made HH bows?
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Ok I just tillered another one to 20 inches at 10 percent moisture with the long string. It started to take a little set, so I put it back on a form, and heat treated it. It is over all wider this time around. Tomorrow I will start tillering it with a couple inches of string brace.
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I cut a small diameter HHB many years ago and started making a longbow out of it after seasoning it for a year. Had to quit on it because it started to chrysal badly. Not too often HHB chrysals but it does happen
Haven’t seen you on in awhile Marc. All woods are not the same even in the same species. Great Osage and no good at all Osage. Arvin🤠
May not comment much but I still check in
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I tillered the bow ,and shot it today. 44lbs. at 25 inch 62 long I shot right around 100 arrows. It is a little curvy, but shot good. No frets so far. No reflex, but no set. I made this one wider, and trapped the back. I feel pretty certain this one will be fine. Design improvement for sure.
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great to hear,, I was just guessing on the reflex
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Brad, when I put it on a 4 inch reflex form, and heat treated it ..it came off the form with just under 3 inches of reflex, and in the tillering process I lost that. Shoots good though. This bow will go to the friend that gifted me the wood. I won't go out of my way to look for any more. Elm ,and hickory are still my favorite white woods. Fire hardened hickory makes quite the bow, and elm is darn near bullet proof.
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Glad you got a shooter Bob. I was thinking it wasn't the tillering process with your experience. I guess a little wider made the difference.
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Brad, when I put it on a 4 inch reflex form, and heat treated it ..it came off the form with just under 3 inches of reflex, and in the tillering process I lost that. Shoots good though. This bow will go to the friend that gifted me the wood. I won't go out of my way to look for any more. Elm ,and hickory are still my favorite white woods. Fire hardened hickory makes quite the bow, and elm is darn near bullet proof.
I agree bassman. Glad to hear you got it sorted out for a good shooting bow. Interesting that you trapped the back. I wonder if that helped your situation a little with it also being wider too.
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Thanks Steve. I would guess trapping helped Dave along with wider, and proper moisture content. Thank all you guys for your input.
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Jeffy D. on the other sight faucet tillers his, and makes them skinnier than all his white wood bows, so this is just my limited experience with the wood so far. NOT WRITTEN IN STONE. Wonder why he doesn't post on here any more?
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I'm here Bobby B.
Just listening.
I learn more that way ;)
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Sounds like you got some good advice and may have made some beneficial adjustments.
I have a HHB selfbow here I made in '04 and checked its numbers. It's 64" ntn, 60# @ 28", and just 1 5/16" wide at the flares. Some might consider that narrow even for osage at those specs. Radiused belly. Not heat treated. Started off straight and now has an evenly dispersed 1 1/2" string follow but no frets after thousands of arrows. Maybe I should have reflexed it, or made it a bit wider and/or longer or heat treated it to ward off that string follow, but eh, whatever, I don't mind much. It's been a good bow... and still is.
I've made bamboo backed hophornbeam bows too. Never had one of them fret either. I trap all my boo backed bows. BBHHB are nice, narrow, petite, just the way I like em :OK
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Yummy )W(
The one on the far right is Hornbeam. The others are Hophornbeam.
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Yep . Nice looking wood. I have made a few fire hardened hickory bows with skinny specs like yours that came out nice, and maintain their reflex, and shoot nice. Shorter than yours for 25 inch draw.