Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: organic_archer on November 02, 2022, 11:26:00 pm
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Good evening, everyone. It took 10 years of building before finally making my first bow inspired by the late Dean Torges. His book is one of my favorites and has been read many times, but I was always hesitant to try his aggressive design.
I’ll post the bow here within the next couple days, but it finished as an osage bow of 62” overall length and high 60’s draw weight. It’s a “D bow” at brace and a “C bow” fully drawn. I strayed from his methods slightly by backing it with paper thin goat hide, mostly because my hunting bows tend to get lots of dings in the thick timber around here. Rawhide backing has been a welcomed protector of my favorite bows’ backs.
It turned out to be a really fine shooter and I’ll be finishing out my deer season with it. I thought the faceted tillering was a fairly fool-proof way to nail tiller and it did seem easier than tillering with a flat belly.
After much research into the backlogs of this forum, I found no shortage of praise for his design and craftsmanship but very few examples of Torges style bows.
If any of you have made a bow with his faceted tillering and rounded belly, I’d love to open a new discussion of the merits of this style. What are your thoughts? If you’ve ever built one, please share a couple photos!
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No doubt, Dean was a special man. We shared our common Greek heritage. I met Dean at the 2003 Mojam. Pretty eventful for me. Jawge
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No doubt, Dean was a special man. We shared our common Greek heritage. I met Dean at the 2003 Mojam. Pretty eventful for me. Jawge
...that was a great Mojam George!
Organic_archer, there should be a lot of discussion and pictures for you...there was a time when it seemed like everyone made their bows as close as possible to the FireStix. This will be a good thread.
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Deans book "Hunting the Osage bow" was a game changer for me, particularly on how to handle fresh cut osage properly. I started using his bow designs but didn't use the facet tillering he recommended in his book. I called to order one of his bowyer's edge tools, he answered the phone, we talked bows, bow making and hunting for quite a while.
When I first started out making bows I experimented with a lot of whacky ideas and posted my results on the Stickbow site. Dean saw my posts and said that I "was an insult to the true art of bow making", he wasn't trying to be humorous, he was dead serious. This rubbed me the wrong way at the time but looking back, he was probably right.
At the time Dean said this, I thought I could come up with some better bow making processes than the old masters, after ruining a lot of good osage I found out I was dead wrong. I did come up with the Tillering gizmo during this experimentation phase so it wasn't a complete waste of time.
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A short and heavy bow with rounded belly sounds like recipe for chrysaling, at least for white woods. Maybe it works well with Osage and yew. Does anyone on the forum forum favour this design for white woods? Will be interesting to follow this thread :)
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I use a slightly rounded belly just because it makes tillering easier even though I believe a flat belly to be better. As I near completion I do start flattening out the belly.
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The first bow I ever made was after reading "Hunting the Osage Bow". This was the mid 90's. I didn't have a computer and knew nothing about the internet so reading books was about the only source for bow building information available to me.
As far as Dean's tillering method I can't speak because I had not a clue how to tiller a bow anyway. I am planning on building a Torges style bow as soon as I can back to building. This is the only picture of the bow I built. The first day of archery season and the first day I hunted with the bow. Guess I got lucky. The bow was 60", and 57#@26". On a side note Eric's tillering gizmo was a game changer for me as far as achieving a good tiller.
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Awesome stories and insights all around. Keep 'em coming!
Had good light today so I grabbed a couple of shots of the bow from the original post. It's not exactly a by-the-book recreation, because I shoot best with a particular handle style; but the overall dimensions and technique from HOB were followed.
This stave had minor deflex in the upper limb, minor prop twist, and good string alignment, so I didn't do any heat corrections. The goat hide is so thin it's transparent in some spots, which gave the back a cool pattern.
(https://i.imgur.com/ker89es.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/SeAHSW8.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/H2KA9nJ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/do50srK.jpg)
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I don't do faceted tillering, but I cut facets using the band saw, then flatten the belly. There is very little tillering to do after cutting a pyramid bow to the lines.
Dean was fun to read on the forums. Seemed to have a great sense of humor.
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The beauty of osage is that it'll handle rounded or flat bellys.Some woods can't.
Did a tribute to him quite some time ago too with the rounded belly and the sunburst pattern finish on rawhide.Much like his BBO's.He was always called the professor.It's evident in his language in his book also.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,60623.0.html
Good tiller on your bow.I like that about goat rawhide also.
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I think he was a professor before he started making chairs full time.
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Good lookin bow Corey. Dean was and is a huge influence on me, though I have never tried to make a Torges style bow. He is definetly my favorite bowyer, just always thought his work as pure artistry
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She’s got nice curves for sure. Looks good to me.
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Dean has been very helpful on tillering one of my very first bows, which was from a boo-backed Osage blank I had purchased from him. MANY pics and words have been sent back and forth via email, and the bow hit the desired poundage of 50#/29". The bow had shot thousands of arrows when a splinter lifted in the main bending area, and Dean again helped me to fix that. In return for his help I translated some of his writing into German for him. Which made him send me an English - already had the German version - copy of the book with a dedication.
After years of shooting the bow myself it was passed down to a lady friend who shot it for a long time, and it is now with a youngster in our archery club, and after 17 years of usage it still throws arrows with authority!
An occasional contact between us was kept, and it much seemed to be his pleasure that he had helped me into bow making successfully.
Was said news when I heard he had passed.
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I started out with rounded bellies and face ring for wood removal. It’s much easier to remove wood that way versus trying to get a flat belly. I still do this for ELBs where I want the rounded belly. For other bows I prefer a sharp spokeshave to get it as flat as possible.
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I am delighted to see a post RE: Dean Torges. From all accounts, Dean Torges was an amazing individual, and among his many talents and achievements, he was also a great writer.
However (and please know I don’t like saying this), I do believe his beautiful, complicated prose oftentimes was a detriment to his overall work. I found, at times, his sentence structure to be too laborious to parse out and apply to the wood stave in my hand.
BUT, as noted by an earlier post, I have found myself constantly referring back to Dean’s website, and, specifically, his “Writings” section. There are some great essays available online still, great for bow-building, and great for when one desires something entertaining to read that is primitive archery-related.
As for his faceted tillering approach, I find it to be quite interesting…but not quite as useful….which, unfortunately, was the main premise/point of it all. Dean professes some inherent advantage to the radiused belly that his faceted tillering produces, and being that my copy of his book is 100 miles away right now, I cannot recall this advantage.
And the fact that I cannot recall this advantage goes back to my point on his overcomplicated writing: the reader should be able to easily grasp the main concepts of one’s book, ESPECIALLY when that book is a How-To type of creation.
But that is the only complaint/negative point I would ever bring up RE: Dean Torges.
And it is highly likely that the reader (=me) is to blame, because the proof of his teachings are out there, and from what I have heard from those who have personally handled his personal bows, he built self bows that were second to none - perfectly balanced, gorgeous lines, and, of course, perfect tiller.
As for the radiused belly, I think the main differentiating point to take away from it all was that Dean was ONLY discussing Osage Orange wood. Since Osage can handle a radiused belly well enough, and since there was some specific advantage Dean believed held true in the radiused belly, he advocated for one. But had he penned another book - like Hunting the White Wood Bow - he likely would have championed a flat belly.
Lastly - I love the bow tribute to Dean Torges, organic archer. I have set aside a few of my staves for some Dean Torges flatboat builds myself…should get to starting them any day now. Thank you for sharing yours.
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The faceted approach's advantage is that its easier to keep balanced from one edge to the other. The peak acts like a keel.
A truly flatbow can be hard to tiller evenly across the full width of the belly. This can lead to uneveness in the edge thickness which can lead to twisting.
Also with the faceted approach you adjust the tiller only on the peak belly facet, where it needs to be done.
Weight removal is achieved mainly by taking down the facets on either side of the belly peak. Then you re establish the peak facet, by flattening the peak along the entire length
Its a more methodical approach, that allows many people better control.
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Nice bow ,nice buck Steve. Will B. gifted me with a faucet tillered Osage bow that he had bought before he got into bow building. The riser area had splits ,and cracks that I repaired. It shoots good. I still have it . It is a snakey bow, and still holds a little reflex. I have made a couple ELB,s that also turned out alright with faucet tillered. Methodical way of tillering.
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I'm enjoying reading everyone's thoughts!
As for the radiused belly, I think the main differentiating point to take away from it all was that Dean was ONLY discussing Osage Orange wood. Since Osage can handle a radiused belly well enough, and since there was some specific advantage Dean believed held true in the radiused belly, he advocated for one. But had he penned another book - like Hunting the White Wood Bow - he likely would have championed a flat belly.
It would've been interesting to see his approach with whitewoods, Tim! I've never tried a radiused belly on anything other than osage and ERC but might have to experiment and see how it goes with a hickory or elm bow.
The tribute came full circle for me this Sunday after taking down a nice young buck with the bow posted earlier in the conversation. This was its maiden voyage, still as blaze yellow as can be. My usual bows are around 68-70 inches long, and it was a pleasure carrying one of 62" length.
It is what Dean said it would be — a solid, no-fuss hunting bow. He came in at dusk and gave me a slightly angled broadside shot at 6 paces. I’m eternally grateful for the gifts and lessons of the hunt.
Edited for grammar.
(https://i.imgur.com/GcKwYQS.jpg)
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Very cool. Nicely done.
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Nice deer, should be some good eating. I’m hoping to get out next year with my first Osage bow..
Congratulations.
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Congrads. I made a 70 inch faucet tillered elm bow, and one from ash the same length. Very similar to ELB bows with arrow shelves. So have other guys on here. They both took the typical set of ELb bows, but shoot fine. Both bows are lower poundage bows compared to ELB's. Elm has a long history as a bow wood, and for good reason.
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Nice, bassman! I’ve got some really clean elm drying out right now. Ill try a rounded belly in the near future.
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Congrats, one helluva trophy right there
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Beautiful bow and tribute to Dean. Congratulations on the deer too!
As far as Dean's writing goes, I couldn't get enough. I loved his style and it inspired me to be a better craftsman, and bowyer. I'm glad I was able to have a couple conversations with himand am very grateful for his contributions.
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Nice shot, nice buck!
I hope I didn't come across as too negative RE: Dean Torges' writing...because that would be akin to bowyer treason, as far as I am concerned.
Both my laptop & phone's browsers ALWAYS have a few windows open to The Bowyer's Edge's "Writings." I have probably read each piece 30 times each, and the bow-making specific articles like "Dimensions of a Hunting Bow," "Tillering the Organic Bow," & "Handicapping the Odds" well over 50 times!
And each time I reread them, it seems like I pick up on something new, something interesting & unique, that I might have glossed over the 1st time.
Organic archer, again, great work. And thank you for posting it.
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Congratulations on the buck, Organic Archer. Nice bow too.
I miss Dean. He was a friend and mentor to me. The only reference I had when I made my first selfbow was his then-new book, Hunting the Osage Bow. Prior to that, I had never held or seen a real selfbow in person, but I still have that 1st bow, ugly as sin, still a shooter. Soon after that I met him, saw his work in person, got some pointers, and my bows improved quite a bit. Just seeing his bows, seeing the quality was possible, was a game changer for me. I have a few of Dean's bows, including The Streak which is the bow he chronicled the construction of in his book.
I eventually bought all the other popular bowmaking books but since I don't care for flat-bellied bows, practically every wooden bow I've made has been made with faceted tillering and fully radiused bellies. There are some benefits that come with the method.
When I use woods other than osage, I adjust the length and width accordingly, but their bellies are all fully radiused too. I've used osage, yew, hophornbeam, mulberry, hickory, elm, ash, cherry, walnut, and others. Dean briefly mentioned using his shaping and tillering methods on whitewoods in his book.
In my opinion, one of his biggest contributions is 'Tillering the Organic Bow'. This too raised the bar for me, forced me to be even more critical of my own work and understanding, and ultimately made noticeable improvements in my bows. THAT'S what Dean was so good at. He didn't like to spoon feed folks if he could help it, he'd rather incite us, sometimes instigate us, to uncover challenges, truths, and rewards for ourselves.
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Here are a few pictures of Dean's bow 'The Streak' from Hunting The Osage Bow.
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Two more
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I am utterly blown away that you not only have one of Dean Torges' bows, but the actual bow he built from Hunting the Osage Bow!
Thank you so much for posting those pix!
I am fairly blown away at this post, overall, because a few days before organic archer created it, I had been googling "Dean Torges personal self bow"! I tried like hell to find some results that showed his self bows, because HtOB does not include ANY actual photos (just illustrations, which are pretty amazing, but still, photos would have been nice, too)...
...and then a few days later the post is created, and then you post "The Streak"!
The Streak looks amazing, too...amazing. Great side profile.
Could you be so kind as to include a full draw photo of "The Streak," perhaps?? :D
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I have had the same book DWS for quite a few years too.Read it from cover to cover too back then.Got the BB series of books then too.
Those book authors used to have quite the discussions about bow building.Which lead to the first Mo Jam shoot comparing styles of bows and different woods against each other.
Quite a history rejuvenating the wood bows back to life back then.They all were great forgers for this hobby.
It was then not ever having shot a bow much in my life that I started making bows too.To this day I still don't own or shoot FG or compound bows.
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What an awesome surprise to see photos of the bow from the book, DWS! Thank you for taking the time to post it. That’s a beautiful weapon! Like Tim, I searched far and wide for real photos of Dean’s work and there isn’t much out there. This is the first glimpse for me. (SH)