Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Horn Bows => Topic started by: HanibalLecter(InnerSmile) on May 16, 2021, 01:04:17 am
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I would like to start a discussion about alternative ways to put horn bows together. The typical method of getting all the components together is to use animal glue. But animal glue, for all its strengths, is notoriously finnicky to make and use. It's more of an art than a concrete method, it takes a while to master, is time consuming to make, and even experts can easily screw up in more ways than one.
For example, I have not seen any discussion in the bowyering community about the medieval horn bows which used nails (more like tacks) to affix the horn plates to the wooden core. Has anyone here made one of these? If not, someone ought to! This gets around the animal glue issue for the horn-wood surfaces. However, it would probably be considerably heavier than glue. These would probably not make good flight bows, but were issued to cavalry for war.
Sometimes I have wondered if low-stress hornbow designs ( like those with deflexed limbs) even need to have the horn/core surfaces glued. A glued-sinew wrapping ought to be sufficient? Obviously you still have to use glue for the sinew, unless you use a cable backing.
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Collagen glues are not difficult to use. Just the same as any glue - follow the 'instructions'....if you don't....good luck!
If you have the skills necessary to make a hornbow you could quite easily learn how to use collagen based glues. If on the other hand you can't use collagen based glues....you should probably forget about making hornbows :)
The correct use of the glue is not the hard part :)
IF there was another viable method it would be in common use.
You aren't an expert if "you screw up easily" you may think you are but you aren't ;) An 'expert' has already made the mistakes and won't do so again :)
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Collagen glues are not difficult to use. Just the same as any glue - follow the 'instructions'....if you don't....good luck!
If you have the skills necessary to make a hornbow you could quite easily learn how to use collagen based glues. If on the other hand you can't use collagen based glues....you should probably forget about making hornbows :)
The correct use of the glue is not the hard part :)
IF there was another viable method it would be in common use.
You aren't an expert if "you screw up easily" you may think you are but you aren't ;) An 'expert' has already made the mistakes and won't do so again :)
Strongly disagree, bownarra. The world had largely stopped making horn bows in the 1700s, so more knowledge has probably been lost than gained since the re-advent of horn bowyering that took place in the late 1900s. What we know today is just a small part ot the past that we have managed to re-interpret and re-construct. You better believe there are other methods of doing this. We just haven't figured them out, yet.
There were other ways of doing things in the past. Take wheels, for example, like on a wagon or a chariot. Everybody knows that wheels have spokes, and those spokes have to be be driven in to the hub, and that involves doing a lot of banging on a chisel, right?
Well, not for dynastic Egyptian chariot wheels. Their spokes consisted of pieces of wood that had been bent in to a V-shape that were glued and bound to the hub with catgut.
https://www.brown.edu/Departments/Joukowsky_Institute/courses/fightingpharaohs10/9985.html
(https://www.brown.edu/Departments/Joukowsky_Institute/courses/fightingpharaohs10/files/11414048.JPG)
It's something that people wouln't have imagined -- until they found them. "There's no other viable way, or it'd exist by now", they'd say. And yet ways did exist in the past for making wheels, which had been entirely forgotten by humanity for thousands of years, until we found this stuff, examined it, and re-constructed it.
There's no doubt in my mind there were, or can be, other ways of putting hornbows together.
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OK guys, before I go to bed, I want to share some quotes from an article I read about Native American horn bows. I highlighted the controversial parts myself.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/25667604.pdf
Mountain sheep horn bows are mentioned
in a number of contexts dealing with
Shoshonean cultural groups and their super
ior quality over other types is always noted
(see e.g., Wilson-Driggs 1919:107; Dominick
1964:155-156; Lowie 1924:246) and Grinnell
(1972:174-175) describes horn bows among
the Cheyenne. Three of these accounts offer
some insight into their manufacture.
"These bows were made from the thick ridge on the upper side of the ram's horn. The horn was heated over the coals to soften it and then the naturally curling horn was straightened. Unwanted portions of the horn were whittled away, and the remaining solid piece was 18 to 24 inches long and one inch thick at the butt. Heat was again applied, making the horn semi-plastic, and it was smoothed and shaped by pounding with a round stone.
The end result was a very smooth and evenly tapered piece which was oval-shaped in cross section. A duplicate of this was made from the ram's other horn, and the two pieces were beveled at their butt ends and fitted together. A separate piece of horn about five inches long and as wide as the butt ends was placed at their junction. Wet rawhide was then wrapped around the three pieces. When it dried, this made a very firm joint. Sinew strips which came from the neck and back of large animals were glued to the back of the bow to give it added strength. The glue was made by placing shavings from the hoof and small bits of thick neck-skin or back-skin in boiling water, and then as a thick scum formed, it was skimmed off." "It took two months for a skilled specialist to turn out such a bow, and other Shoshoni people and even people of other tribes traded eagerly for them." (Dominick 1964:155-156).
According to Dominick this account of horn bow manufacture was obtained from a Jack Contor who was head of the welfare office in Blackfoot, Idaho and who had made the history and culture of the Northern Shoshone a hobby. Another brief account of Shoshoni horn bow manufacture was by Nick Wilson who spent some time as a boy among Chief Washakie's group:
"The bows were sometimes made of mountain sheep horns, which were thrown into some hot spring and left there until they were pliable. Then they were shaped, and a strip of sinew was stuck on the back with some kind of balsam gum that was about as good as glue. This made a powerful bow. Not many Indians had this kind, most of our Indians used bows made from white cedar strung with sinew along the back." (Wilson-Driggs 1919:107).
The authenticity of the two accounts is difficult to evaluate. Contor apparently obtained his information from informants while Wilson was an actual observer. Some actual experimentation with mountain sheep horn using both direct heat and hot water would undoubtedly yield some valuable data
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Nailing a bow together is cheap, but it will disrupt the integrity of the lams and will not be so uniform as glue. This means that it would have to be over built. Though if you over built it it would probably work ok.
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There are other ways of doing it.... it’s just none of them work ;)
Stick to the tried and true ways, practice, and you will have success. If not, best of luck to you.
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You are of course absolutely within your rights to 'strongly disagree' - no problem. I can't wait to see the bow you make with your alternative methods. Comparing a wheel to a hornbow is a little off the mark though :)
Hornbows are incredible things - I respectfully suggest you make a few to get a fuller understanding of what you are talking about. I'm onto about number 20.
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@hanibal
search for grozerarchery from hungary and have a look on the biocomposit bows of grozer. Csaba Grozer describes his method to produce this bows: "the middle layers of wood, the inner layer of pressed horn, while the outer layer of pressed sinew plate. These two layers are glued to the wooden plate by modern glue and the glued layer gets a fibre strengthening."
I think it is not really primitive cause the fibre strengthening is some sort of glasfibre and the glues are expoy and/or modern carpenters glue but Csaba build this sort of bows since 15 or more years. He also builds horn composit bows in the traditional way. Then he uses fishbladder glue.
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Rather odd and disconnected comparing a wheel to a bow.A bow is a working piece [bending] and a wheel is stationary [fixed].
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You know, it was not that long ago we had someone in here stirring the pot in a remarkably similar manner. Picking a subject, posting contrarian cherry picked data and looking to start trouble. This person had never built a single bow in their life, had zero experience, but somehow felt the need to contradict known experts in the field.
Something smells funny again.
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You know, it was not that long ago we had someone in here stirring the pot in a remarkably similar manner. Picking a subject, posting contrarian cherry picked data and looking to start trouble. This person had never built a single bow in their life, had zero experience, but somehow felt the need to contradict known experts in the field.
Something smells funny again.
100% I smell herrings :)
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Rather odd and disconnected comparing a wheel to a bow.A bow is a working piece [bending] and a wheel is stationary [fixed].
I'm not comparing them. I'm using the Egyptian chariot wheel as an example of a radically different ( and honestly, more refined/intelligent) way of doing something that was lost on the people of the future.
This archery stuff sure seems to attract some simple minded individuals.
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InnerSmile,
To the point of your inquiry, I don’t recall or have never read anything regarding tack secured horn plates. My experience in horn bows is, however, limited. I would be interested in seeing examples of this, perhaps you can post those?
Seeing as how you are new to the forum with few posts and are diving down an esoteric rabbit hole it doesn’t seem simple minded to question your intentions or perspective, at all. It seems, instead, properly justified.
You write “This archery stuff...”. That does come across as though you have very limited personal experience. But, perhaps I am wrong. If so, please, post some of your work so the community can gain insight into your background and intention.
You are proposing that someone ought to pursue a tack driven project. You thereby ask for someone else’s time and effort. With sincerity, do you have intentions to work at answering this question for yourself? If so, I am confident that the forum will do its level best to support your efforts to illustrate a more refined and intelligent approach to the craft.
Sincerely,
Stephen Parnell
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Given the amazing amount of work involved with building a horn bow, I would stick with the tried-and-true methods if I were to build one. If someone were to put in the time and elbow grease to figure out an easier way, more power to 'em--I don't think you'll get any objection from anyone. But don't go insulting people because they recommend the tried-and-true method to someone who, as far as we can tell, is an absolute beginner. That isn't being small-minded; it's just being sensible.
By the way, the mountain Shoshone you mention used rawhide to splice together their horn pieces. But my understanding is that, for the limbs, they used good old hide glue to attach the horn and sinew to the wood core.
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Rather odd and disconnected comparing a wheel to a bow.A bow is a working piece [bending] and a wheel is stationary [fixed].
I'm not comparing them. I'm using the Egyptian chariot wheel as an example of a radically different ( and honestly, more refined/intelligent) way of doing something that was lost on the people of the future.
This archery stuff sure seems to attract some simple minded individuals.
I got exactly what you meant.It's still disconnected.Problem is you can't seem to fathom our meaning.A testament to your intelligence and maturity.Meanwhile we keep cranking out bows to show on this forum.While you sit on the side lines and watch and lurk.Who's the sub par gifted person now?All of this conversaton is flying right over top of your head without you even getting a sniff of it's meaning or the willingness to understand it.
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The thinly veiled insults and name calling is supporting my suspicions.
Trust me when I tell you this, you DON'T wanna go there, son.
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JW, I think your quote format got a little mixed up.
Hanibal, you can question what, why, and how these guys do what they do; they are very generous with information, but if you want to be an upstanding member of this community do not tell them they are wrong unless you can give some evidence for why you are right. Look up this guy's posts and see what to say clear of.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=19816
This is the thread where he really fluffed feathers. You can disagree, but you have to be respectful. People here are proud of their work.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,69664.msg978142.html#msg978142
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@Hanibal
have a look: https://www.archerylibrary.com/books/faris-elmer/arab-archery/
or if you are more scientific: https://www.archerylibrary.com/books/hickman/archery-the-technical-side/hickman/a-new-bow-of-radical-design-construction-and-performance/
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InnerSmile,
To the point of your inquiry, I don’t recall or have never read anything regarding tack secured horn plates. My experience in horn bows is, however, limited. I would be interested in seeing examples of this, perhaps you can post those?
Seeing as how you are new to the forum with few posts and are diving down an esoteric rabbit hole it doesn’t seem simple minded to question your intentions or perspective, at all. It seems, instead, properly justified.
You write “This archery stuff...”. That does come across as though you have very limited personal experience. But, perhaps I am wrong. If so, please, post some of your work so the community can gain insight into your background and intention.
You are proposing that someone ought to pursue a tack driven project. You thereby ask for someone else’s time and effort. With sincerity, do you have intentions to work at answering this question for yourself? If so, I am confident that the forum will do its level best to support your efforts to illustrate a more refined and intelligent approach to the craft.
Sincerely,
Stephen Parnell
What a beautifully written post, I may not be able to write as eloquently as above but I certainly appreciate it :)
A lot of these 'controversial' posts are written by bots....not a real person in sight. The way the posts are written usually gives them away....
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I don't think bots are an issue here because each member is hand screened, and PA is an obscure language anyway.
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Most times I ignore these non self proven statements by those anxious to participate on this forum but just plain too lazy to try.
I don't pride myself on being appeasing to those with attitudes.
There's way too much bad info and assumptions spread around on this forum from 1 time attempts never solved,second or third hand plagerized info or theorists that think this can be all solved on paper.It's good to keep records of designs,length,width,degree of reflex,types of wood and composites etc.You still gotta pull shavings and bend wood to really know.The problem solving most times is kept in your head.
This is a bow making learning site.Bow building is problem solving 101.Come in with an honest,sincere,serious attitude to learn.Check your attitude out at the door.Sometimes you get advice you don't want to hear.
Once you make enough bows the language of those is not obscure.
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Well looks like there is some disagreement going on, which I have no part of.
I've whittled out a few bows in the past and I'm here to learn as much as possible.
That said awhile back I ran across an excerpt from a historians paper on ancient bows. He mentioned a African/Egyptian bow made from two horns spliced at the middle by a wooden grip.
Yesterday I ran across this image.
(https://www.englishsalvage.co.uk/upload/images/shopprod/mounted-antelope-horns_15594_pic3_size3.jpg)
I'm figuring a sturdy grip with tapered ends might work to join these horns, which I believe are hollow for several inches at least.
I suspect these long narrow horns would take to being soaked and bent very nicely to get a proper recurved shape.
Don't know the size of this species but there are or were several very large species of antelope with extremely long horns, some very straight.
No doubt African trophy horns of any sort are getting harder to come by but antique sets show up now and then grandfathered in.
I remember a scene in a very old sand and sandal film, can't remember which one, where preparing for a war Greek craftsmen were placing soaked rams horn bows on drying racks with pins similar to belaying pins to give them a recurve shape. How historically accurate that might have been is anybody's guess.
It occurred to me then that the horns must have been spliced at the grips in some manner.
Glue should hold it well enough but the tension of the string itself can hold a modern light takedown bow together.
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Famously, gemsbock horns have been used to make a bow like you describe. There was a photo of one in one of the Bowyers Bibles.
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Famously, gemsbock horns have been used to make a bow like you describe. There was a photo of one in one of the Bowyers Bibles.
Cool, I'll try to find an image of that one.
Apparently the Gemsbok has been introduced into New Mexico, in one specific area where they won't upset the natural order.
It would be really nice to recreate one of those ancient designs. They appear to predate all the other horn and sinew bows at least in Egypt.
The females have long slender horns while the males have thicker horns better suited for battle. My guess is the female horns would be best choice for bow limbs. The horns can be as much as 33 inches long.
If I had one I'd rather have it with a fairly light draw weight but snappy enough for a fairly high velocity.
I'd leave it unglued but the grip ends bedded closely and the opening of the horns hooped with a decorative metal ring to avoid splitting. Then it would make for a compact takedown.
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Those bows certainly look cool....but unfortunately they are dogs to shoot.....The best use for those horns is to glue them to a wooden core and sinew back it :)
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Those bows certainly look cool....but unfortunately they are dogs to shoot.....The best use for those horns is to glue them to a wooden core and sinew back it :)
Apparently I didn't exactly rediscover a lost art. I googled up quite a few gemsbok bow builds, and they follow my ideas almost exactly.
It is a chore getting these to shoot well but its been done.
All bending is done with dry heat rather than soaking, 300 degrees F is recommended with any higher resulting in destruction of the horn.
The outer surface is scraped down back and belly to get the limbs to draw smoothly and tiller without excessive stacking.
The best of these I've seen on another board turned out fantastic. Sinew wrapping the first few inches at the base prevents splitting. Its best to forget making a takedown, though it has been done. Unless securely glued and pinned recoil can increase likelihood of cracking even if the bases are tightly wrapped.
Maximum draw length before the limbs stack to the point they can't be drawn further seems to be short, but if done up properly a 26+ DL can be achieved if the horns are long enough.
PS
Somewhere it was mentioned that a company was using pressed horn. I have a near century old antique pistol with highly decorative grip panels I'd found odd looking because they had damage from being chewed on by tiny insects.so they weren't likely to be synthetic. I looked into it and found these grips were made using steamed and compressed goat horn. The result looked like molded gutta percha or plastic but much more durable. IIRC the Belgian manufacturer of these pistols imported these grips from Turkey.