Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Allyn T on May 03, 2021, 10:04:21 pm
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I know a lot of people go on about how the primitive people of the past had it all figured out but I'm of a mind that humans are human which means we are flawed. There are also great variances in skill level among people regardless of how long they have practiced a skill. I know folks think the Holmegaard was the bees knees and maybe it was or maybe it was just average or even subpar, we can't really be sure. My point is, just because you lived by the bow doesn't mean people needed or mad great bows. I think modern bowyers make far better weapons now than people ever dreamed of back in prehistory. As an example I'm posting a pic of a tribesman from Africa. They hunt for food everyday and I think all can agree this isn't a stellar bow and isn't the pinnacle bow design they came to after thousands of years making bows.
(https://i.imgur.com/JbLJee9.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ioRXgu1.png)
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In general, with enough time, a people will figure out the optimum way to solve a problem given their surroundings. The ALB works very well for us because we have the tools, time and materials to build them well, and we don't live off what we hunt. There are different constraints and priorities in other places. I'm quite sure that bow was made by a competent bowyer, and that man is a better hunter than most people here. People get really good at what they do for a living. This adaptability is why we have thrived on the whole.
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That's my point, you don't need a perfect bow to hunt or to be a hunter. There is no way a bow with cracks that big down the side is going to be a great bow, but it works and that's all that matters. I'm sure if that bow was found a couple hundred years from now someone like Tim baker would declare it the perfect bow and say the cracks would have to have happened after the life of the bowyer because no one would allow their main weapon to be in disrepair like that. Though we can clearly see it is indeed in use
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Seems like a misinterpretation of what certain cultures bows represent. Similar to evolution not being survival of the fittest but survival of the fit enough. Archery cultures came up with the most effective and consistent designs capable of meeting their needs based on their technology, resources, and demands. It may have been pointless to waste time, energy, and resources to push for performance when the only objective measure would be “can it kill game and last as long as I need it to?”
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Correct, and we make better coats and hats too.
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but it works and that's all that matters.
One thing that is often overlooked is that it is the arrow that makes the kill. ethnological reports of traditional archery in north america often comment how much more focus and work was placed on arrow making. One benefit north american ethonographers had was a scientific approach to reporting and access to primitive cultures at the same time. We are limited to making a lot of assumptions about archery as a whole with older cultures like the holemguaard people.
Something else to consider is alternative hunting methods preferred by primitive people, where the bow may have only been required to deliver a crippling gut shot.
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What material is that string made out of? ;)
He hasn't made a sub par bow on purpose he has made the best bow that he can.....
Can you make a better bow with access to any tool you desire and great wood......yes and so could he.
Nothing different about ancient peoples.....just the same basic human as you and I but in a different circumstance.
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What material is that string made out of? ;)
He hasn't made a sub par bow on purpose he has made the best bow that he can.....
Can you make a better bow with access to any tool you desire and great wood......yes and so could he.
Nothing different about ancient peoples.....just the same basic human as you and I but in a different circumstance.
+1
Del
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The thing is necessity is the mother of all inventions the way I see it.The get the job done scenario.
Tim just did'nt assume about anything when it came to design.He tested it to prove it with many dead end road attempts.His need was not for survival.A different need.He did not make a bow to show but to perform.
I for one am grateful of his work.
It's always good to make your best.Some want to and some don't.It's up to the individual back then and now.
We are afforded nowadays with the means to make these natural material bows just as good or better as man made synthetic productions and the love of archery still abides.Barring the compound versions.Which to me still is not a stick and string weapon.It's a contraption with sights.The law just sees it a different way which serves them well for money making reasons on a massive scale.
There's just something about a beautiful self replenishable resource at our disposal that is cool and a gift, and to those who abandon the skill to make them they've given up and taken the easy road.
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In the case of the Hadza, they hunt with poisoned arrowheads. Hit the animal somewhere and maybe cause only a scratch is enough that the animal will die. The quality of endurance distinguishes humans from animals - this means that the Hadza, after even a small scratch in their game, only have to follow it (sometimes it can take the whole day) to collect the game.
For such a hunt, I don't need a fast bow, a bow with a very high draw weight, a bow shot from horseback, or heavy arrows with tips that can penetrate steel armor in case of doubt.
Just as we only partially know the details and requirements of the Hadza's living conditions, we do not know the living conditions of our ancestors who lived thousands of years ago. We can only guess and speculate based on individual finds that we discover today from that time.
From then until today, the most diverse forms of bows have developed worldwide - only with the introduction and spread of writing are we able to preserve knowledge. The sciences have developed and produced new knowledge. About archery there are myths and legends (Odysseus for example) and since the Middle Ages writings like "Toxophilus" or the original of "Arab Archery". So you can find different types of bows and different shooting styles, some of which have been preserved until today.
With the physics behind the bow, scientists have dealt more closely only in the 20th century and the results are physical (force-distance (draw), speed, energy storage,....).
The human being tends, whether the too big contemporary knowledge, to follow only one strand of infinitely many......
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I don't think people understand why I started this thread. I'm not putting down primitive cultures or bowyers. I do understand that they make the best they can with what they have and no I couldn't do any better using the same tools and I would prolly do much worse. My whole point was that people like oldman who got ripped apart for making a holmegaard that wasn't prefect, maybe his was actually perfect, but people act like that 9000 year old bow is a step above everything else when maybe it isn't. Maybe the fragments are because one of the bows blew up and the maker pitched it into the bog : )
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The language you use in your original post doesn’t really align well with your point. I also think it’s an assumption to think people believe the holmegaard was such a great bow. It’s more that it led to great bows. If it did indeed have stiff outer limbs it had way too much outer limb mass to make it efficient.
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It's hard to articulate my thoughts well enough to get my point across perfectly
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Looking at the guys belt, I wonder how primitive he really is.
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They have axes and knives now. Sometimes technology just stalls at the good enough phase. Someone took a Chris Boyton bow to that tribe and they were blown away by the performance.
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My whole point was that people like oldman who got ripped apart for making a holmegaard that wasn't prefect, maybe his was actually perfect, but people act like that 9000 year old bow is a step above everything else when maybe it isn't. Maybe the fragments are because one of the bows blew up and the maker pitched it into the bog : )
I think we have to assume that the artifacts where average for their time and place because we have so little to compare them to. Perfect is a measure of how well something does compared to what it is supposed to do.
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If you make the design and tiller it well the benefits of it become readily apparent. A broader limbed white wood bow with tapered tips is still an excellent design. Look at the design as a whole, not just one individual bow.
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I think I would have to see the bow in person, and the kind of wood they have to work with,, maybe that is the best design given the wood,, the deflexed tips may be allowing the bow to be draw without breaking, I am just guessing,, or have some idea of the cast of the bow ,, with a hunting arrow, maybe a full draw, and chrono results,, )P( (-S
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If you look at pictures of their bows you will see a wide variation in tiller. Some good to great, some awful. As you tend to see in any skill where people DIY.
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Have a close look at the bow )P(
(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/sepik-hunters-use-bow-and-arrow-to-hunt-animals-guns-are-banned-of-picture-id582869072)
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I understand and agree with Allyn position
The basic concept is that we tend to fill the gaps of absence of information using knowledge and experiences of our life and that could be misleading.
In the second picture look at the bow in background on the right
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/21/9a/86/219a861c88c0d9defacf2ce5e65ca4ff.jpg)
(https://c8.alamy.com/comp/x583cc/young-hadza-men-practice-hunting-with-bow-and-arrow-x583cc.jpg)
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As for Hadza, their bows can be very powerful. The article "Mechanics of Archery among Hadza Hunter-Gatherers" describes the measurements of some bows, as well as the anthropometric data of the shooters. Best of all, they sometimes use bows with a pulling force greater than their own weight!
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Interesting discussion!
I think it's true that, in a survival situation, good enough is good enough. If I were lost in the woods and starving, I could whack down a green chokecherry branch, string it with a shoelace, strap a couple found feathers to a reasonably straight, green shoot, and probably make something that would kill a deer at close range. It wouldn't last long, but if I lived in an area with lots of straight chokecherry branches, it might be more efficient just make a new bow every few days and never bother with finely crafting one out of seasoned wood. I read somewhere that the extremely long, d-cross section English longbow design at least partially came about because good bow wood was fairly rare, and with that design it's easy to mass-produce a whole bunch of bows from one tree trunk (compared to flat bows, sinew-backed bows, etc). In a primitive situation, I would think that the making of artistic, finely finished, high performing bows is something of a luxury. If I'm really depending on archery for my life, my design has to be both effective AND efficiently cheap (in materials, time, resources) to build.
Here's another aspect to this that's already been mentioned: I think it's entirely possible that sometimes, the people one sees in such pictures aren't as "primitive" as the pictures would indicate. How many people in developing countries will wear their animal skins and carry bows around while the tourists are in the village, then put all that stuff away and get back into t-shirts after they leave? Sometimes, when I see a picture of someone holding an obviously substandard, but very quaint-looking, piece of gear, I suspect that's what's going on. It's probably pretty common.
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I really enjoyec ther part about pulling more draw weight than there body weight,,nice :)
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The Hadza always have modern clothing on because apparently the Government does not allow them to dress traditionally.
It is true that many pictures you see of San tribesmen are staged as most no longer live that life.
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The bow is only one small part of the equation; in Africa one could easily debate the design merits of many of the bows and find them somewhat lacking - especially when compared to some of the works of art displayed by bowyers here on PA. Bow designs themselves vary hugely between different tribes - the Hadza are merely one of 125 different ones in Tanzania - add 45 in Kenya and 30 in Uganda - and you already have over 200 distinct peoples merely in East Africa alone. Whilst bows vary between regions, peoples and individuals - one thing you cannot argue with is the almost universal use of poison by anyone doing “serious” archery. The effectiveness and lethality of arrow poisons is irrefutable - even today - in the era of the centerfire rifle - it is the technology of choice for bringing down big game - especially if you are trying to avoid detection by the wildlife authorities! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satao_(elephant)
So - whilst the bow might be “primitive” - it’s sole purpose is to deliver a very complex concoction of poisons that display some very advanced chemistry!
Perhaps the English warbow would not have had to be so strong, or made of yew, or tipped with armour piercing bodkins, were its only purpose to deliver a lethal dose of cardiac glycosides at 15 paces?
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yeah but there is only so much poision that you can get and keep fresh!!! to them i think they thought "these people arnt worth my poison!" (lol)
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Killing to eat is far different
Than eating to kill you enemies. Bows are weapons and Tommy hits on this. Development drew to kill while armored or at greater distances.
Warfare had a big say in the bows ability to effecticate human outcomes!
HH~
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It is easy to imagine in a situation where game is very common, cover is sufficient, hunters exhibiting excellent skills, and no external pressure such as ongoing war or fighting, an individual would knock together a merely functional bow and call it a day so he can spend more time with his buddies laughing at farts, gambling, and gossiping.
Scarce game, drought, no cover for ambushing, and looming threats day and night, and I'd be all for crafting a bow that would do everything I could ask of it and if that other guy keeps coming around bothering me with the same fart joke he has told since we were kids, I am gonna give him a busted lip to show around the village.
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You are your environment. Name the place and time. Arvin
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Thats right Arvin
Use to tell my men “you are what you eat”. Even in a plt or Companu Of fire pissing warriors it was put to me this way as a young CPL., That’s two stripes up. My Nam PSG was talking to the PL about one of the SQD LDR’s who stepped on his _ _ _k. He says “platoon Ldr some of these Ldrs wont make it thru first contact, they just dont have it. Theres a pecking order in Combat, the environment weeds out The lesser very effectively”.
So you can see why combat archery bows advanced to fit that environment. If they didnt those arrow slingers did not last long. Even with great long range bows tactics of the warriors fighting that were smart enough to figger out that getting in close and fighting that way defeated the best bows. Couple thousand guys wearing red crosses proved that when faced with the best bows of the times in Turkai. Killed em by the thousands.