Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Stickhead on March 29, 2021, 04:01:13 pm
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[This is a bow made by "old man." I'm posting it on his behalf due to technical difficulties, so don't give me credit for it.]
This is a replica of a Holmegaard, Mesolithic bow that I made for a friend of one of my brothers, he is from Sweden. I told him last year when I meet him that I would make him a bow, at the time I didn't know what type bow I would make but thought this would be fitting. I tried to the best of my ability to duplicate the original Holmegaard bow, not the bow that most people think of but the true museum bow. It is made from an elm sapling no of about 3.5" in dia. it is 60" long and pulls 55#@28". It has sinew nocks and sinew bow string, elk hide for the grip tied down on both ends with sinew, I also put goat rawhide on the back of the bow, just in case(this bow will most likely be used for hunting). Most accounts I have read don't think the original bow had a backing, they also thought the bow was strung in the opposite direction from what it was. I made him 3 hunting, 1 target arrow with shafts of Viburnum, wild turkey feathers for the fletching mounted with sinew(he sent me these last year from a turkey he harvested himself) probable should have been goose feathers. I made the points from dacite, and mounted them with pine pitch glue and sinew. I know that this bow is not the fancy bow that people like to see, but it has been an experience to build, this is my first bow from a sapling, all others are from staves of ERS, hickory, or ash.
(https://i.imgur.com/FaRKgu0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9Z9WuE1.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/cIEA6PG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/b53MuXU.jpg)
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I'm not a bowyer, but I sure like what I see. I take it that the original had the nocks wrapped above and below as well?
~Kees~
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I am not sure about double nocks on the original, they say that it had sinew nocks. But I do know that the string will slide off the tips at full draw if you don't, and that was a very unpleasant moment, so that is how it got the double sinew nocks
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nice job :)
Del
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The holmguaard had stiff outer limbs. That is why you had the problem of the string coming off the nocks. Your bow is bending too much in the outer limbs. You have the width taper correct but not the thickness taper. It should get slightly thicker when the width narrows past 'normal' taper. Tiller logic :) Check out Boweds holmguaards.
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The limb dimensions came from the original bow, width and thickness.
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The limb dimensions came from the original bow, width and thickness.
Interesting as my understanding of other replicas that have been made show that the tiller shape has stiff outer limbs when made to the dimensions of the replica.
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for me it would be hard to replicate from measurement,, and also couldnt a different wood bend different even with same measurement ,, depending on stave,, or have a different shape tiller,, even with the same measurements,,????
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The holmguaard had stiff outer limbs
Interesting as my understanding of other replicas that have been made show that the tiller shape has stiff outer limbs when made to the dimensions of the replica.
Let set aside wood discrepancy. I think we all agree that almost every stave and sapling has his own characteristics.
Is that possible that you refer to mollegabet bows?
I asked in the other thread what lead to think that holmgaard had stiff outer
Original holmgaard have no visible shoulders, pretty uniform dept along the limbs, almost pyramid shaped outline.
I just want to know if there is something I havent noticed
I understand the advantages of stiff levers. I just do not see them in the original artifact
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Very authentic looking bow Old Man, tiller is spot on too.
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A stiff section in the mid upper limb shows the set taken in the resting position farther out to the tip on that limb.
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I don't know any other way to replicate a 9,000 year old bow other than to use the same type wood the original "old man" used along with the fact that it was made from an elm sapling of about 3.5" in dia. and use the dimensions taken from the original artifact, all of these I did to the best of my ability. I tried not to take away or add to other than the goat skin backing and handle wrap. I removed less than 50 scrapes to the bow that you see, so if it doesn't meet some peoples idea of a properly tillered bow maybe they should take it up with the original "old man". As far as other Holmegaard bows that were made to the same criteria I used, I have not seen any, so I can't say what other replicas look like at 28" draw.
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not being critical in any way,, just saying a different tree might act different even with the same dimensions,, so every replica might vary a bit in the look of tiller, :)
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It's a good effort you made making this bow according to an interpretation of a picture.Using all natural materials.Adapting to circumstances created from your efforts.Tillering saplings is no different than tillering staves.With so few of scrapes made to it I'm sure it got made rather quickly.Maybe a few more scrapes would have rounded mid limb of the top limb some.It's also great your friend who's going to shoot this bow is using it to hunt with.He should enjoy it and wish him success with it.
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The bow is made from the dimensions taken from the original artifact, that can be found on the internet. I did convert it from metric to standard dimensions. It gives the length as best as possible seeing that the artifact is in four pieces, it also gives the width and thickness ever few inches, this is what I used to shape the bow from, I wish the sapling I used had been a little larger in diameter, to keep to the original design exact, there are no edges on the bow limbs, the crown of the back go straight into the belly of the bow so to make an exact dimensions of the original the sapling would have to be the exact same size as the original bow was make from, if that makes any sense, and no it was not a quick build.
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I think your mistake was to use those dimensions as indicative of the original bow in original condition. They should just be a guideline with the bow ultimately properly tillered.
Other replicas using the same dimensions look too bendy near the grip with stiffer outer limbs.
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I understand the advantages of stiff levers. I just do not see them in the original artifact
Probably no stiff levers in the Holmegaard, unlike in the Møllegabet.
See, https://donsmaps.com/longbow.html
Cf. https://www.digitaldigging.net/holmegaard-bow-reconstruction/
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.... With so few of scrapes made to it I'm sure it got made rather quickly. Maybe a few more scrapes would have rounded mid limb of the top limb some. ....
The middle of top limb does appear to be a little stiff. But one might also say that the bottom limb is a little stiff in the inner limb. Or that he is holding the bow too high up and the knocking point is too high as well.
Is it possible that the maker is talking about 50 sessions of scraping?
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I didnt think of that Pat,, the original condition could have varied quite a bit,, as we know ,, a slight variaition can make a dramatic difference in tiller,,,
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Thanks for the links, interesting stories about how to make the bows with stone age tools. End products look pretty darn good to me.
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I didnt think of that Pat,, the original condition could have varied quite a bit,, as we know ,, a slight variaition can make a dramatic difference in tiller,,,
I agree that deterioration of the original allows some interpetation by bowyer, but I disagree with Pat going so far as to characterize old mans replication as a mistake.
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I guess deliberate bad tiller is on purpose.
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Lets look at this another way the maker of the original knew what he was doing right?
Do you think they made this bow to shoot flight arrows?
Why would a bowyer make a bow less efficent than it could be?
There is a pretty strong possibility that the original was used for hunting, agreed? So in general heavier arrows and efficency for penetration would really matter...right? This being the case a whip tillered bow just ain't going to cut the mustard.....
Less than an added 1/16th thickness, a 32nd might be enough. will make the outers stiff so...are you certain that the originals measurements were perfect with no degradation of the original?
A holmguaard with stiff outer limbs is a probably one of the best straight staves designs out there. A whip tillered flatbow on the other hand....
I've just finished a holmguaard replica i'll post some pics soon to show you how I think the original was tillered :)
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@Bownarra
I reckon your thinking is for a big part correct.
I'm not sure we can assume that in the period the bow was done they had the knowledge or the will to take advantage of the full potential of that specific design.
As a few scrapes and some wood difference may lead to a whip tillered bow on one side or a relative still outer bow on the other it would be safe to stay on an average position in my opinion.
the Holmegaard design do not show evidence of pronounced stiff levers so why engrave in stone "holmgaard had stiff outer limbs"?
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Making a replica and observing horrible tiller emerge just doesn't make sense unless you are making a wall hanger.
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In the bog near Holmegaard 2 bows were found in fragments.
Typical of a Holmegaard is the construction from a young tree / sapling. The back is rounded and the belly is flat. Worked was the handle, the belly and a little towards the limb ends (tips). This sometimes creates a small shoulder, but does not have to. In the two finds, these shoulders are not at all to very little pronounced. In the two Holemgaard bows there is also no increase in thickness in the outer limbs.
This all speaks for a normal tiller, in which the bow bends evenly over the entire limb except for the outermost 4-5 inches.
The stiff tip concept is more likely from the Mollegabet bow, a find also from Denmark but several thousand years younger. Only a few pieces of this bow have been found and it is assumed that it was a child's bow.
The construction of a mollegabet is also suitable for saplings and the energy storage and delivery is certainly a bit more efficient - but the bow may not be as safe and durable.
In my opinion, it is very difficult to reconstruct a bow according to the original dimensions of the found objects. Even less than 1/32 inch in thickness can make the difference between 30lbs and 60lbs....and that's exactly why Tiller is not easy.
A very good description of the construction of a Neolithic bow in the mix style Holmegaard / Mollegabet shows the film that was shown on German television in a learning and information program for children (of all ages 8))
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fX7PyULwJFI
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Very interesting video, Andrew. One thing I noticed with his string he twisted it but not reverse twisted like a Flemish twist string or other cordage. Any idea if that was the technique during the time of the Holmgaard/ Molle bows or is it just how this modern/primitive bowyer does it?
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Twisting fibers is elementary to get strong cords from fibers. Such a cord knotted to the ends of the bow and you have a string.
Flemish splices probably do not exist since the Stone Age.
Since when then also the reverse twisted cords with incorporated little ears(without knots) exist, there I was unfortunately not there ;).
The String of Ötzi was twisted sinew. Another and similarly old find from Spain is made of nettle and also twisted.
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wall hanger?
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Thanks for posting the link to the video on making the bow with stone age tools. Making one with modern hand tools is enough of a challenge for me. :-)
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wall hanger?
Yes, willie. That's the other type that you don't make. ;)
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I'm with Gifford! I would like to try a Holmegaard one of these days - anybody got a Wych elm stave? :BB (lol)
Hawkdancer
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I believe that the best thing I can do after reading the remarks from PatM and others is take the bow out and burn it, for any one like me to have the gall to insult such experts as some of you with this junk is unforgiveable and I beg for forgiveness for even having the stupidity to enter such a horrible excuses of a bow into the Bow of the Month, and I pray that ya'll are able to recover for this horrible experence.
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Or you could just re-tiller. Nobody is going to take a caliper to your bow and the original and judge the bow based on that . But you do you.
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Why don't you drop it, Pat.
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It's unacceptable that "old man" is clearly suffering from trolling, imagined or not.
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In another thread I had just had a long discussion about what a Holmegaard bow is.
I was guided by the original and the latest research on the original, while the discussion partners postulated the principle of narrow, stiff lever ends as the governing parameter as stated in the Bowyers Bible Volume 3. In my opinion, this principle does not correspond to a Holmegaard, as I have already written in this thread. This is the principle that can be derived from a Mollegabet bow.
The bow from Oldbow is a fine copy of the Holmegaard bow, perhaps a little whip ended in one limb, but this is probably due to the wood.
The bow will do its job and when used for hunting, the animal doesn't care if it is killed by a 180fps arrow or a 150fps arrow.
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"A bow can be perfectly balanced and have terrible tiller" March 2. 2021 PatM
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That's a highly accurate statement.
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I believe that the best thing I can do after reading the remarks from PatM and others is take the bow out and burn it, for any one like me to have the gall to insult such experts as some of you with this junk is unforgiveable and I beg for forgiveness for even having the stupidity to enter such a horrible excuses of a bow into the Bow of the Month, and I pray that ya'll are able to recover for this horrible experence.
No, don't do that. It is whip tillered but besides that not that bad. I have seen worse
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I believe that the best thing I can do after reading the remarks from PatM and others is take the bow out and burn it, for any one like me to have the gall to insult such experts as some of you with this junk is unforgiveable and I beg for forgiveness for even having the stupidity to enter such a horrible excuses of a bow into the Bow of the Month, and I pray that ya'll are able to recover for this horrible experence.
No, don't do that. It is whip tillered but besides that not that bad. I have seen worse
Marc, I believe your post misses the crux of Oldmans displeasure. PatM has chosen to crap in Oldmans thread with deogratory comments about the bows tiller. When did this become an acceptable way to welcome new members?
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I believe that the best thing I can do after reading the remarks from PatM and others is take the bow out and burn it, for any one like me to have the gall to insult such experts as some of you with this junk is unforgiveable and I beg for forgiveness for even having the stupidity to enter such a horrible excuses of a bow into the Bow of the Month, and I pray that ya'll are able to recover for this horrible experence.
No, don't do that. It is whip tillered but besides that not that bad. I have seen worse
Marc, I believe your post misses the crux of Oldmans displeasure. PatM has chosen to crap in Oldmans thread with deogratory comments about the bows tiller. When did this become an acceptable way to welcome new members?
Most of that was directed at you, willie.
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to critisize and to accept criticism is important in a forums-environment. to critisize others work is more difficult than to praise. any critisism should be helpful, not disrespectful, arrogant or even insultant. Or speaking with the Frenchmen: C'est le ton qui fait la musique :) just my general thoughts. cheers (-S
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I was just being a little sarcastic about me burning the bow, it is still going to be a gift to a friend, who I hope harvest a deer with it. I do wont to think all who did have constructive criticism about the bow especially AndrewS who along with others who understand the difference between a Holmegaard and Mollegabet bow. It is sad that there is always one who has to put others down to try and make themself look like they are above others.
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I just looked up what trolling is and it is not pulling a lure behind a moving boat like I thought, and yes that is what was exactly going on with the person in question, I just didn't know it. I don't intend to let one person stop me from showing a few of my bows.
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old man, don't burn your bow. Enjoy it in good health.
If the originals are in fragments we certainly don't know the tillers they had.
Jawge
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I think the important thing to remember is that the originals where probably built to maximize cast, minimize breaking, shoot straight, etc. That is easily the most important part to copy. If you get that right you have a pretty good replica.
Think how the original bowyer thought, work in similar scenarios and with similar tools, and assuming you and he are both competent bowyers the results will be pretty close. There is more than one right answer, but really not to many more in a given context.
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if you make a bow, and you like it, then your good,
it others have a different opinion,,ok, learn from that if you want,,
I am never completely happy with my tiller, its always a balance in keeping the wieght or bending more better, and not scraping till its a 20# bow,,
if someone thats knowledgable doesnt like the tiller,, Im gonna take that into acount,, or ignore it,, or make improvements on my next one,,
or if Im really happy,, maybe I just dont post that one,,and just enjoy the bow myself,,maybe not in the mood for a critique,, on that one,,,
if you post here,, people are gonna comment,,
even though some of the comments were not positive ,, you have probably learned to look at tiller in a more open minded way, and learned from the experience, that will help your bow making in the future,, my best teachers were not shy about pointing out what needed improvement in my work,, and werent worried about offending me,,but making me aware of what I needed to work on,
my best teacher was so harsh with his critique I said ok, I cant do this I quit, he said Ill tell you when to quit,,I continued and to this day give credit to him for my success in many areas of life,,
you noticed no one here said you should quit,, enjoy your bow making and keep posting,,
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comments and constructive criticism are good, but brow beating someone for ones on pleasure is another thing.
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Don't stress over a few comments on here! I for one am only interested in positive criticism :) We need to be able to disagree without guns being drawn :) No way to learn anything if everybody just says 'oh what a great bow' and pats you on the back for something that maybe doesn't deserve it.
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Positive criticism Bownarra, really. You once referred to Dave Mead bows as "bamboo things". Doubt you did any research on his bows. I posted one. Got nothing positive from you. Built the bow in four hours from bamboo floor boards, and some scrap Maple. Simple material, simple design, and highly efficient. I posted it to show beginning bow makers that they could build a successful bow in short order to hunt with if they chose to.
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wasn't going to chime in here but I have to agree with Oldman ... "comments and constructive criticism are good.. but brow beating someone for their own pleasure is another.". respect and confidence are hard to gain but are easy to lose and can be hard to gain back , some respect was lost on this thread, hope it was worth it.... we are here to help each other and build our skills together to pass down, not to try and destroy someone who is enjoying a passion shared.. good luck to you Oldman on your next build and I hope you share your projects still ..... gut
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Thanks again to those who understand that not all bows are for everyone, I will say that the Holmegaard bow is not the best tillered bow that I have ever made, but again take that up with the original "old man". My son has taken several deer with my bows and river cane arrowers, stone points that I made. I don't consider myself to know much when it comes to making bows, I broke the first 22 bows that I made. My record is much better now, I have never sold one of my bows but have given 6 of them away along with several arrows, and I can count 6 of my bows where I am sitting, most of which are intended for my great grandson. The only reason that I posted the Holmegaard bow was to see if anyone else appreciated the simple designe and that after 9,000 years it can still be used to harvest a deer.
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Well put, Old Man!
Hawkdancer
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Positive criticism Bownarra, really. You once referred to Dave Mead bows as "bamboo things". Doubt you did any research on his bows. I posted one. Got nothing positive from you. Built the bow in four hours from bamboo floor boards, and some scrap Maple. Simple material, simple design, and highly efficient. I posted it to show beginning bow makers that they could build a successful bow in short order to hunt with if they chose to.
Good logic there....one negative comment means everything about me is negative :) I'm sorry I've hurt your feelings but I don't know you and you don't know me....so.....lets shake hands metaphorically and move on!
I have given plenty of good advise over the years but if you don't like it - don't read it :) Doesn't bother me :)
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Your advice is sound according to most.. Your bows are masterful in many bow makers eyes. I know that.. Not a matter of bothering you. In that instance you were degrading another man's bow design by calling it a" bamboo thing" when it is time tested , and proven, and it doesn't take 2 years to make one. That my friend is not positive criticism. Just making you aware of that fact. You have not hurt me feelings at all. So we shake hands, and move on. If I like your advice I will read it ,and if not I will move on.
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Thanks again to those who understand that not all bows are for everyone, I will say that the Holmegaard bow is not the best tillered bow that I have ever made, but again take that up with the original "old man". My son has taken several deer with my bows and river cane arrowers, stone points that I made. I don't consider myself to know much when it comes to making bows, I broke the first 22 bows that I made. My record is much better now, I have never sold one of my bows but have given 6 of them away along with several arrows, and I can count 6 of my bows where I am sitting, most of which are intended for my great grandson. The only reason that I posted the Holmegaard bow was to see if anyone else appreciated the simple designe and that after 9,000 years it can still be used to harvest a deer.
It's one of the reasons why I started in the first place.I figured if a caveman could do it I surely can.