Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: organic_archer on December 15, 2020, 06:21:17 pm
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A new problem has developed this year that hasn't been an issue in the past. Almost all of my 2020 late winter/early spring osage harvest (cut before any trees had leaves) has developed "delamination" of the growth rings. A couple of my locust staves have done the same thing. As a full-time bowyer, it's a devastating discovery.... especially since this would have been the next haul of staves up for customer work.
I cut a lot of staves each year and reduce about half of them to near-working dimensions when green. The delamination is happening on both large staves with bark on, and the staves that have had the bark and sapwood removed and dimensions reduced to 2.5" wide and a few inches deep. I haven't changed anything about my seasoning process. Trees are cut. Split out. Ends sealed. Backs sealed if bark/sapwood is removed. Stored indoors, in the Midwest, in mild and controlled seasoning conditions.
(https://i.imgur.com/7m05Yjr.jpg)
Big osage stave with bark on. 5-6" wide, 5-6" deep. Ends sealed.
(https://i.imgur.com/4r8NPsD.jpg)
Reduced osage stave. Bark and sapwood off. 2.5" wide and 2.5" deep. Back and ends sealed.
Any advice? Is it best to reduce to near-working dimensions and seal EVERYTHING except the belly of the stave, every time? I'd like to nip this one in the bud.
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I’ve had that happen to some of my Osage, and hickory as well. It’s really annoying. People to told me it was storm damage or Quacking cracks, from when the tree was alive... which seems weird cause my checks only showed up after seasoning. Not sure how to keep that from happening. I’ll keep and eye here to see what everyone else says...
-Fox
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maybe it was too dry indoors,, I think in a covered shed outside,,without artificial heat might be better, but I am just guessing,,
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Looks like wind shakes. It happen in live trees from stresses caused by wind. It may have only been noticeable after it dries but the weakness was there.
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Looks like wind shakes. It happen in live trees from stresses caused by wind. It may have only been noticeable after it dries but the weakness was there.
Yes and drying them opened them up. You can work around them but don't try and make a bow with them in.....superglue or not!
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I made the mistake of leaving all of my split and sealed 2019 staves out for a week and a half before hanging them in the garage, and it hit 98 with 30mph wind and bone dry humidity...and they all have the same issue. I've worked around some, but I've also had to use a lot for other non-bow projects. I'm stuck with one place to store my staves for seasoning, and its not climate controlled or insulated and our climate is ridiculously dry. It's a battle for sure. Those might be from wind like others have said, but I know for a fact that if you have them seasoning in an ultra dry area or have let sun/wind/dry get them even for a short time, that will cause the issue too.
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Yes, I agree. Any time I've seen this, the staves were left large and/or dried too quickly. The worst was a bunch of fresh cut osage staves my buddy put in his garage that he heated with a wood stove. They had the bark still on. It was really amazing how bad they were checked on the sides. I took half of the same batch of staves to my place, did my normal routine, and not one of them checked anywhere. I don't think we should be too quick to write them off as wind splits. It's not impossible, though they don't really look like it to me. You're doing the right thing though by taking this as a warning to carefully scrutinize your seasoning process. It's what you can control. Wind splits you can't.
When I reduce a new log's staves by removing bark and sapwood, then narrowing )-w( it to 2.5" wide or so, I also remove a lot of the extra belly wood in the limb areas, bringing it down to about 3/4" for a flatbow. That can be done really quick on a bandsaw. I've never seen the side checks develop in a piece treated that way.
Oh yeah, seal the back and ends only. Not the sides.
You said they're stored in 'mild and controlled conditions'. What are those conditions exactly? What is the relative humidity and how is it controlled? Is there air movement from a heater, fan, or a/c unit? Are your staves introduced to that environment immediately after cutting? My shop is controlled, but green wood spends time elsewhere first so they lose moisture more slowly.
Just some things to consider. I hate to see good bow wood go to waste.
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I've seen "bad year" rings that have split, some due to obvious damage, from rubbing branches, disease etc. If there's a weakness...that's where it will open up...
Del
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Yeah I've seen that too Del, but I don't think that's what he's dealing with. I see 9 checks in the first picture, staggered among different growth rings and areas. Those are drying checks.
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All the osage bows I have made with side checked wood failed, even after I worked the wood down to the point that no cracks were visible.
Like you I have always cut and seasoned osage the same way. Because my side checking is so random I feel it is a stave cut from a tree without the structural integrity of sound osage. I have side checking from staves from the same tree, and none from staves I cut from a different tree on the same day. The wood I had side check was lighter in weight and less dense than my normal osage.
I used side checked wood worked down past the cracks for a sinew backed R/D osage bow, here is what happened, the drying sinew pulled the wood apart.
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Thanks for the replies everyone. Greatly appreciated. I’d never heard of the wind shakes until I looked it up and that explanation makes perfect sense. It says it can happen to all tree species and multiple trees in the same area. The osage and locust were cut close to one another.
“The Clostridium bacteria creates an enzyme called pectinase, which can dissolve part of wood's structure. During a wind storm, it is often found that the weakened wood cracks; hence, the common name of wind shake.”
Humidity varies from about 55-95% throughout the year in NE. After the staves are split out whole or reduced, they’re brought into the shade in the shop. There’s no temperature control in the summer other than two small ceiling fans to circulate air. For winter, it has a small radiant heater in the corner that’s farthest away (40 feet) from the staves, but it doesn’t run every day and never gets the shop warm enough to work without long sleeves or a light jacket in the winter.
This batch of staves went 7-8 months or so in the shade in the shop with natural temps and humidity. Just turned the heater on for the first time a week ago, and they were already splitting bad by then.
Looks like most of you who’ve had this ended up with bad wood that lets go in some portion of the build. I’ll set these aside for now and be cautious/prepared for that when the time comes.
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all that being said, its so interesting to me, you can did up a fence post and make a bow, and that wood had no care at all about the seasoning,, just so many variables,, usually osage is pretty fool proof with some care,, I am wondering if maybe coating the sides would help when drying,,it would slow down dry time, but maybe help on the side checking,,
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Brad, drying only opens these cracks. They are in the live tree from severe weather/wind conditions. (W
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ok thanks I understand now,, not much experience with that,, :)
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BL looses moisture very rapidly. I made an osage bow with side checks and I thought those were wind shakes. What I see here seems like drying checks to me but what do I know. Jawge
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My understanding is that a shake is just a type of drying crack that occurs between the growth rings. I recall Gary Davis and Osage Outlaw having a talk about whether these happen during drying or not. Seems like some trees are more susceptible to these types of cracks compared to just typical drying checks.
Found this reference online.
"Shakes were once thought to be caused by external stress factors such as wind and temperature extremes (often called wind shakes); however, research has found that a bacterium is the true cause of shake. The bacteria that causes shake enter the trees through the roots and not through the stem. The bacterium belongs to the clostridium genus and is often accompanied by an unpleasant odor."
Dr. Gene Wengert, forum technical advisor; http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Causes_of_Shake.html
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Strange. I’ve never had this happen but makes sense. Did you happen to smell an odor with this batch?
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Loggers here will often core drill sample trees of black walnut when deciding what price to give the landowner. I was doing a portable milling job on a mans place cutting some logs that were too big to feasibly transport when the loggers came in to drill some trees on a hillside where I was cutting lumber. They turned down ( or rather offered pallet lumber price) a whole south hillside of black walnut because shake was present in 6 of the samples they took. They took and paid top dollar for every other walnut on his place. I wound up milling the trees that they had sampled because he thought the tree would probably die from the sample. Some of the boards milled literally came apart in layers. Others appeared fine, but I don’t know how they came out when dry.
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I wound up milling the trees that they had sampled because he thought the tree would probably die from the sample.
interesting. could you describe more about the sampling you observed? what were the dimensions of the sample.
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I just looked, and it looks like the tool is called an increment borer. Pretty much like a T handle hand auger but with a different bit. They would bore out the core and look at the cylinder of wood to check for rot or shake, that way they didn’t buy a bad log by the premium board foot yield. The hole in those trees were close to an inch and went to the center of the tree. Log buyer said the tree would heal from it, and I believe it would, but I didn’t own the trees.
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35-40 years ago, I remember seeing Osage apples along the road walking from my house to the closest local tennis court...this was looong before I knew anything about bows or Osage. I thought my memory was true, and last time I was home, I looked in the hedge row between the road and the new houses that were there. Sure enough, there was one “male” tree growing in the tangle and old stumps from other long gone Osage’s were nearby. My Bud owns the tree and said I could have it when I want to cut it. There are a pile of bows in that tree. Cool part...it’s in SC and in a spot where the wind doesn’t blow and the tree is protected if it ever does blow. I’m hoping for killer rings with the long growing seasons there.
Anyhoo...I’m cutting, splitting, sealing, and bringing it back to Wyoming in late April/early May. I will be treating all the promising and cool character staves as well as I possibly can, as this is a special tree to me. There will be, however, some staves that I’m willing to sacrifice with an experiment. I will take two or three staves and I will subject them to the same heat/wind abuse for the same amount of time my 2019 staves were neglected. We shall see if they end up seasoning into delaminating, side checking disasters and compare how they fare a year or so out to the staves from the same tree that are seasoned correctly from the get go.
I’ll also be bringing home a tree from the same Indiana pasture that my ‘19 staves came from. I’ll mark them and do the same experiment. So in a year, we should have some decent data to point one way or another. Is it rapid/poor drying, wind induced, or both. Should be good and useful data especially if all Indiana staves side check and no SC staves side check or if the IN and SC properly seasoned staves are good vs both sets of initially “abused” staves all checking/delaminating.