Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Santanasaur on December 03, 2020, 03:50:09 pm

Title: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Santanasaur on December 03, 2020, 03:50:09 pm
This one  draws 45# at 28” and is 72” long. The layout is asymmetric. Bottom limb is about 1.5” wide, shorter and stouter, and the upper about 1.25” wide and slightly longer. The wood is hophornbeam  with a buffalo leather handle, tooled with antler tines and homemade stamps. Tips are cowhorn, and the stain is two colors of leather dye faded into each other. Handle and tips fade to black, limbs are saddle tan and the grooves in the back are colored with black dye. The arrow pass is green lamb suede.

There was a natural snakey kink in the handle that allowed for an s handle without the usual added risk. This one was tricky to tiller with all the character and the ridges on the back. Both limbs took about 3/4” of set. The lower limb holds more reflex—I tried to even it with heat but the natural shape of the stave crept back into the final tiller and I decided to leave it be be. This one’s shaping up to be one of my favorite shooters so far

better pictures here https://imgur.com/gallery/AoA1Vm8
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Santanasaur on December 03, 2020, 03:52:25 pm
more
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Santanasaur on December 03, 2020, 03:55:15 pm
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Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: RyanY on December 03, 2020, 04:42:46 pm
Awesome pics and bow! I’ve often wondered if making a lower limb wider would improve longevity due to the increased stress lower limbs experience in the draw.
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Santanasaur on December 03, 2020, 05:38:17 pm
Thanks Ryan. The main reason I made the lower limb wider was mostly because it’s slightly more reflexed. So in the end it’s slightly thinner than the top limb. Normally I don’t do this

I have also had the thought that for a shorter lower limb to resonate at the same frequency as the top limb it would have to be slightly wider and thinner. In theory if the limbs have the same spring frequency they’ll have the same timing  (ignoring the string) even though the travel distance might be different (assuming bows are simple springs) I know the string will force both to come home together, but I am still curious what the relationship is between the frequency of each limb and hand shock or vibration. Just thinking out loud
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: bjrogg on December 03, 2020, 05:52:57 pm
Interesting stick. I especially like the fifth and the last pictures.
Well done
Bjrogg
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: PaSteve on December 03, 2020, 05:54:56 pm
Excellent workmanship. Really neat bow.
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: willie on December 03, 2020, 09:42:03 pm
quite nice!
Quote
but I am still curious what the relationship is between the frequency of each limb and hand shock or vibration. Just thinking out loud,

wouldn't shock be more about the unequal momentum left in each limb when the string comes back to brace?
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Kidder on December 03, 2020, 10:00:30 pm
Fantastic bow all round...but certainly no surprise given your track record! Great job!
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Santanasaur on December 03, 2020, 10:33:16 pm
quite nice!
Quote
but I am still curious what the relationship is between the frequency of each limb and hand shock or vibration. Just thinking out loud,

wouldn't shock be more about the unequal momentum left in each limb when the string comes back to brace?

I think you’re right Willie. I’m just wondering if spring frequency has any additional influence
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: willie on December 03, 2020, 11:04:33 pm
you post above mentions resonate, which might imply a natural vibration if plucked or struck like a string or tuning fork? 

As we are trying to get as much work out of the limbs as possible, could you be referring to the return rate or limb timing?
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Lehtis on December 03, 2020, 11:40:30 pm
Good looking bow!
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Santanasaur on December 04, 2020, 12:41:00 am
you post above mentions resonate, which might imply a natural vibration if plucked or struck like a string or tuning fork? 

As we are trying to get as much work out of the limbs as possible, could you be referring to the return rate or limb timing?

I was just talking about minimizing vibration, and maybe slightly reducing shock. I’m curious if there’s anything special about limbs with the same frequency or if nothing different happens.

The reason Im interested in frequency to begin with is that Ive been wondering  about making something similar to Badger’s mass theory model but with frequency as the variable instead. Basically it would be a model that predicts the frequency a bow should have given it’s specs, just like the mass theory table. As you tiller you would approach the correct frequency for the bow, just like you narrow in on the right mass with Badger’s model. The advantage is that this would be unaffected by the mass in the handle. Just a half baked idea
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: pumarchery on December 04, 2020, 12:58:24 am
Good bow friend! You've a knack for taking pics of em too, like that last pic especially. Which sort of leather dyes did you use for it exactly?

 Kind regards, Michael from the Netherlands( that guy from the bowyer subreddit)
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Santanasaur on December 04, 2020, 01:14:56 am
Thanks Michael, the dyes are fiebings leather dye. I did the whole bow in saddle tan, then blended black into the handle, tips, and the crevices on the back. To get the dye in the valleys  but not everywhere else I used a very similar  technique as in this video of wiping shellac over the ridges on the back, as a resist.  https://youtu.be/z7aX9vilxwc
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: willie on December 04, 2020, 03:29:37 am
Quote
The reason I'm interested in frequency to begin with is that Ive been wondering  about making something similar to Badger’s mass theory model but with frequency as the variable instead.

modeling and developing guidelines for bowmaking  gives us all comparative benchmarks to share and improve from  :)

to follow a bit better what you are hoping to do, could you give a bit more explanation of what frequency you are thinking about? would not each limb tend to set up a shock wave when returning home at its own frequency? Amplitudes being less or more noticeable?
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: dreamcraft_archery on December 04, 2020, 05:23:02 am
Beautiful work my friend!
And very interesting experiments with design!
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Hrothgar on December 04, 2020, 07:02:43 am
Good looking bow, beautiful finish.
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Selfbowman on December 04, 2020, 03:48:15 pm
Well done!!!! Why so long? You have a long draw? Again very nice bow. Arvin
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Will B on December 04, 2020, 03:55:19 pm
Beautifully crafted character bow. I love natural center-shot bows. Great job with the bow and your pictures!
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Morgan on December 04, 2020, 09:58:08 pm
Beautiful bow.
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Black Moshannon on December 05, 2020, 09:25:15 pm
This bow looks great and I love the colors and profile. Really enjoying your Youtube channel, very relaxing ambiance and scenery. Could drift off to sleep to it.
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: bradsmith2010 on December 06, 2020, 02:20:00 pm
beautiful congrats,, )P(
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: MM2 on December 07, 2020, 08:44:06 am
Beautiful and very inspiring!

Thank's for sharing.

Michael
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Pappy on December 07, 2020, 03:39:19 pm
Nice job from a challenging piece of wood. :)
 Pappy
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Santanasaur on December 08, 2020, 03:40:55 pm
Quote
The reason I'm interested in frequency to begin with is that Ive been wondering  about making something similar to Badger’s mass theory model but with frequency as the variable instead.

modeling and developing guidelines for bowmaking  gives us all comparative benchmarks to share and improve from  :)

to follow a bit better what you are hoping to do, could you give a bit more explanation of what frequency you are thinking about? would not each limb tend to set up a shock wave when returning home at its own frequency? Amplitudes being less or more noticeable?

I’ve really been throwing around my terms Willie, I haven’t thought this through all the way so hopefully  someone can shoot some holes in my thinking.  I’m talking about the spring frequency, assuming that bows are simple springs. Of course this isn’t true and might ruin the idea right on the spot.

 I’m thinking the simplest way to measure this would be to ‘dry fire’ a limb (unbraced) from a few inches so you can measure the oscillation  frequency (in other words predicting the dry fire speed by assuming the bow is a simple spring) If bows really were simple springs you would only have to hit the limb like a tuning fork but I think pulling a bit more will be more accurate.

Here’s what I think  would have to hold true for the model  to work.  1—early in tillering  the frequency will be very high and drops as you tiller. 2—It’s possible to predict the frequency of a finished bow from the specifications, using a model from a large data pool (same as we do with mass)  3— A bow with too low a frequency judging by the model is not heavily stressed, and could be drawn farther, or made narrower, or shorter. Similarly a bow with too high a frequency is under built and will overwhelm itself.
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Santanasaur on December 08, 2020, 03:44:30 pm
Well done!!!! Why so long? You have a long draw? Again very nice bow. Arvin

This one only draws 28”. The set isn’t too bad at 3/4” per limb but would have been worse if I went  for more draw length or shortened the bow. I’ve made similar designs 68” long in the past but this piece really challenged my skills. I’m sure a better bowyer could get more from it with better tiller.
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Santanasaur on December 08, 2020, 03:46:46 pm
This bow looks great and I love the colors and profile. Really enjoying your Youtube channel, very relaxing ambiance and scenery. Could drift off to sleep to it.

Thanks Kenneth, I’m making a how to video for the handle that should come out soon. Have also been working on a magazine repeater for bows, just for fun. That’ll be out there today or tomorrow
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Digital Caveman on December 08, 2020, 07:36:14 pm
72" is a good length.  Many of my bows are within 66"-74".  I like the low stack and they're good for accuracy and durability.  Of course I haven't hunting with one yet.

Keep in mind that there can be standing waves along the length of the limb, just like in a vibrating string.

The only springs I've studied so far are modeled as massless, which is certainly not true for a bow, but hopefully I'll be able to do the math on this stuff in a few years.
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: willie on December 10, 2020, 08:32:15 pm

modeling and developing guidelines for bowmaking  gives us all comparative benchmarks to share and improve from  :)

to follow a bit better what you are hoping to do, could you give a bit more explanation of what frequency you are thinking about? would not each limb tend to set up a shock wave when returning home at its own frequency? Amplitudes being less or more noticeable?

I’ve really been throwing around my terms Willie, I haven’t thought this through all the way so hopefully  someone can shoot some holes in my thinking.  I’m talking about the spring frequency, assuming that bows are simple springs. Of course this isn’t true and might ruin the idea right on the spot.

 I’m thinking the simplest way to measure this would be to ‘dry fire’ a limb (unbraced) from a few inches so you can measure the oscillation  frequency (in other words predicting the dry fire speed by assuming the bow is a simple spring) If bows really were simple springs you would only have to hit the limb like a tuning fork but I think pulling a bit more will be more accurate.

Here’s what I think  would have to hold true for the model  to work.  1—early in tillering  the frequency will be very high and drops as you tiller. 2—It’s possible to predict the frequency of a finished bow from the specifications, using a model from a large data pool (same as we do with mass)  3— A bow with too low a frequency judging by the model is not heavily stressed, and could be drawn farther, or made narrower, or shorter. Similarly a bow with too high a frequency is under built and will overwhelm itself.
[/quote]

I think thickness would be a determinant and length also, at least length of the working section I believe. so many variables to consider. density etc.

A little off topic maybe, but could I ask?  Would developing the model would be useful to bowyers of all skill levels?  Or perhaps a way to investigate new designs?

Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Marc St Louis on December 11, 2020, 06:50:02 am
Nice bow
Title: Re: Ironwood flatbow (hhb) with natural centershot handle and buffalo grip
Post by: Santanasaur on December 24, 2020, 03:34:30 pm
More of this bow and how to make a textured handle in this style https://youtu.be/kOPGyK564Tc