Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Allyn T on October 13, 2020, 08:52:54 pm
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What's the main difference between an ELB and a bend in the handle D bow? Are there benefits one has over the other? Just curious and wanting to see what people think
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as i understand it they can be one and the same.
to me ELB refers "mostly" to cross section (aside from the horn nocks) and "D bow" refers mostly to profile.
i do however reserve the right to be wrong if someone comes along and corrects my terminology ;D
i think generally what people call a D bow is a little bit wider and flatter than a ELB and is picked when using a wood that doesn't respond well to a deep narrow cross section.
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one is flat and the other more rounded belly,,
hickory is better flat,,yew works with the rounded belly,, I am over simplifying ,,but thats kind of the basic of it,,,,like stated above,,
depends on the wood,, if you look at the Native American D bows,, it will give you good idea of the design,,and what wood they used,,,same with English Long Bow,,
if the bows are laminated, then it changes alot,,and thats out of my area of expertise,, but others will chime in,,
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The main difference is length and therefore energy storage :)
Profile isn't something that should be held onto religiously, such and such a bow has to have a certain belly radius etc. No - see what the wood can take and build appriopriately. Most elbs don't or shouldn't have very rounded bellies. Yew included :)
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the elb has very specific specifications it has to meet, the belly has to be at least slightly rounded and at no part of the bow should the thickness be less than 5/8 of the width. It does not suit all woods.
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So on ELB's the thickest part of the bow is the handle, is that true for D bows as well or do they just bend in the handle but can flair wider after that? Eastern Red Cedar is good for ELB correct?
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They are variations of the same thing. The arbitrary rule required for an ELB in various classes is what gives it what's perceived as a separate category.
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Various classes as in competitions?
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Yes..
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I don't think length has much to do with it although most ELBs are man(woman) height. "D" bows, referring to the Eastern Woodland style can be from bows in the 40"+ range to over 7" for the Cherokee war bow.
I think Brad's description makes it simple and easier to understand. ERC can make a good ELB but the wood condition(knots, etc.)have to be considered. I shot an all sapwood ERC ELB a few years ago that shot surprisingly well.
For lam bows you have to consider both the back material as well as the belly material. The core isn't that critical.
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Does the "D" refer to the side profile or a cross section on the limb? I think I've heard both.
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DC, I consider a "D" bow as a bendy handle bow, one with a side profile braced that looks like a "D". An ELB is a "D" bow because of it's "D" shape braced unless it is a Victorian style with a stiff handle area. When referring to cross section an ELB has a deep, narrow cross section and a standard "D" bow has a flat, rectangular cross section.
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D for the side profile more than the cross section.
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I think of it like Pat B - except for the Victorian style he mentions, all ELBs are D bows, but not all D bows are ELBs. Someone did explain "D bow" to me in terms of the round belly cross section, but the side profile shape makes more sense. (Dean Torges didn't help things by calling D bows "C bows" and stiff handled bows "D bows" in his book...)
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I figured they were basically the same, all bourbon is whiskey but not all whiskey is bourbon : )
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I like your analysis, Allyn. :OK
TimBo, I don't doubt that a Victorian ELB is a "D" bow I was only making a point that a Victorian ELB has a stiff handle where as an English(Welch) war bow, also an ELB has an arc of a circle profile.
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Elb bows have a certain look no other bow has to me. Probably has to do to what Badger said.
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That's the arc of a circle tiller. That and a 1500gr arrow was the original artillery.
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English longbows should definately NOT be tillered to an 'arc of a circle'. Not if you like your teeth! Elbs can be very sweet to shoot BUT you must get the tiller right and that means a strongly elliptical tiller.
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English longbows should definately NOT be tillered to an 'arc of a circle'. Not if you like your teeth! Elbs can be very sweet to shoot BUT you must get the tiller right and that means a strongly elliptical tiller.
Strongly disagree... never had hand shock from an arc of a circle tillered ELB or otherwise.
IMO most "hand shock is poorly shaped grips, arrows too light for the bow.
I'd say slightly elliptical is ok... strongly elliptical is surely whip tillered which has can have it's own problems like set or chrysals .
The problem with elliptical is how do you define "strongly" or "slightly" whereas a circle is pretty explicit.
(I know we've agreed to disagree on this subject in the past, but we manage it with good humour :) )
Del
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There are many types of profiles. Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_shape
Un-braced (un-stringed) profiles of the bow (stave).
Front(al) profiles: straight, narrowed handle, Sudbury, Mollegabot, Pyramid, Eiffel tower, paddle, ....
Side profiles: straight, recurved, decurved, reflexed, deflexed, R/D or D/R, ....
Cross-section profiles (of different sections): flat, round, ELB, many complex ones as in horn bows, ....
Braced (stringed) or drawn profile. (Can also refer to tillering profile)
All side profiles.
Circular, D bow, rigid handle D, elliptical, whip-tillered ...
At least we need to figure out why we are asking the question before we can answer it properly.
Q1: Can all bows with "D Bow" braced profile be also called ELB? No.
Q2: Does the bow profile matter? Of course.
Q3: Do we need to have some standardized bow profile categories? Yes.
Q4: What is the best braced or drawn profile of a bow with the cross-section profile of ELB? Circular or elliptical?
Q5: What is the best profile for a Eastern Red Cedar bow?
What is the best front, side, and cross section profile for that material?
What is the best braced and drawn profile of that material?
Can these questions be answered definitely by any of us?
What is the real, hopefully simple, question you expect to get answered here?
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I think one of the advantages of D bow,,is there can be some varition in the way its tillered,,and still shoot well...