Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Tommy D on July 16, 2020, 03:18:31 am
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I’ve been trying to learn a bit more about some English Bow Woods and came across this article by Pip Bickerstaffe who I believe is a very respected bow maker in the UK.
https://www.bow-international.com/features/traditional/native-bow-woods/
One thing that really stood out was this comment that Ipe works for a while and then develops compression fractures...
(https://www.bow-international.com/features/traditional/native-bow-woods/)
Having built a few Bamboo backed Ipe I am curious if others have found this to be the case? And whether it is more of a wood suitability issue or a design suitable for the wood issue?
I have found the Internet and the forums a most wonderful resource - and I guess much like taking directions from a stranger - one must filter for oneself the good information from the poor. I know that Mr Bickerstaffe has massive experience building bows - so I definitely take his advice seriously - but he also has to deal with irate customers when things go wrong - so I often wonder whether much of the so called “innovation” in modern Wood bow building has come from the amateur simply because they only have themselves to blame if it all goes wrong?
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As you say, there is some truth in the article but you must always remember what he makes and sells. The article has to be seen as advertising the product not an impartial analysis of uk bow woods. I would contest much of what is said but some of the content is accurate. Go with your experience, unlike the target reader of the article you have made and used bows with those timbers, what did you find? If he can stop keen wanna be bowmakers making bows and buying his product instead because British wood is "useless for a long-term longbow " (Bickerstaff, paraphrased) then the article has done its job
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If he can stop keen wanna be bowmakers making bows and buying his product instead because British wood is "useless for a long-term longbow " (Bickerstaff, paraphrased) then the article has done its job
I hadn’t thought of it quite like that - but I see where you are coming from. I was thinking more that as a business selling bows once you hit on a good working formula you are possibly less inclined to keep experimenting, but I was more surprised by the idea that a wood bow consistently breaks down over time - whereas rightly - or wrongly - I was of the opinion that a well build or “overbuilt” design should show up flaws relatively early in the process and if you do get a good working bow it should last a long long time...
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See how the article works? You doubt your experience and knowledge, all those customers searching for a good selfbow now think they are wasting their time and money because the makers selling that product are using inferior materials, and now believe they should buy a laminated bow from someone at the spiritual home of English archery who really knows what he is doing.....
As I said, some of the article is accurate, most of it isn't.
All springs will break down with enough use, even car coilover springs snap if you go over enough road bumps. Funny he doesnt suggest his bows will eventually lose their edge, they will though, you canna break the laws of physics (Mr Scott, aka Scotty)
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Pip also thinks that bows get faster when they are broken in.
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Also he claims that yew and wych bows were made from unseasoned wood.
I don't know if that is true, but would it make sense to season the wood before use?
Bending green wood doesn't make any sense, unless you want to gain loads of set. (well, with my tillering skills i get loads of set anyways :NN)
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In no way would they have been unseasoned.
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I think the only reason someone might make a greenwood bow in period is if they were really hurting for a bow in a hurry! :fp
I could see them roughing it out green and then setting it aside to finish seasoning like some native Americans were documented to do.
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Let me tell a little story.
About 15 years ago I was shooting my 70# self Yew self nocked yew ELB at a field shoot.
Pip had been invited to the club by the bloke who ran it (and also ran an ironage education centre there).
As we were shooting round Pip displayed no interest in seeing my bow, despite me approaching him.
After we had shot, he set up to give a talk about bows, sell his books and take orders for bow... which is fine as he has to make a living.
What shocked me somewhat is that he was charging people to listen to his talk! :o ::)
As you can imaging... I didn't pay to hear it! ;D
I have since displayed as much interest in his bows as he displayed in mind (although I have had to re-nock one for someone who caught it in a car door).
He has IMO no interest in encouraging people to make their own, and I believes he perpetuates some of the myths about the unsuitability of English bow woods.
Del
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The more people who make their own and/or support those who make selfbows and custom bows, the fewer the customers that make their way to his door
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Sounds like Pip is propagating myth to further his business. Unfortunately it comes across that he doesn't know his adze from his elbow.
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Doesn't know his adze from his elbow (lol)
I'm going to have to steal that one.
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I borrowed it myself. ;)
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Man that sounds odd. I always heard good things about Pip. What a weird thing to diss bowwoods haha.
Ofc the climate ain't exactly the same, but I live across the channel, here in NL we have some of those woods mentioned and they work ok for me.
In my humble opinion; I'm willing to bet, that your English trees and species specific to yall islands make bows too!
As an onlooker from outside: the English should cherish their native yew and all the other bow-woods too. If your forebears in archery made use of those woods, I'm sure they'll serve u fine most likely. Also adapting the length, width and crossections in your bow design can do wonders for using even suboptimal woods.
Here's peeps that have a rich and vibrant archery tradition, as a guy coming from a place that don't really have that, I'd say do your best to keep that alive and growing by encouraging local novice bowyers!
I think in the end talk like this from Pip, will likely discourage them to harvest their first stave of bowwood, to me it's silly and counterproductive to be slamming these ( from what I'm hearing here, experience and what I read) good bowwoods which are available there.
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The more people who make their own and/or support those who make selfbows and custom bows, the fewer the customers that make their way to his door
Sounds like Pip is propagating myth to further his business. Unfortunately it comes across that he doesn't know his adze from his elbow.
I hadn’t really thought of it like this and if that is the case it’s sad because I have always felt that the more that gets done to promote traditional archery the better for everyone. Just because one builds their own bows doesn’t mean that everyone can or will - but encouraging more people to do it will surely expose more people to the sport - and those who don’t want to or can’t build them would come through your door and buy one. A win win.
I simply wonder if whether he has been so focussed on making/ selling his designs he simply has not experimented with these other woods and the designs/ methods that suit them as so many have here.
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I hadn’t really thought of it like this and if that is the case it’s sad because I have always felt that the more that gets done to promote traditional archery the better for everyone.
Not everyone can see a larger picture than themselves and what is good for them alone. A rising tide lifts all boats, but some either fear competition or only care about their own boat.
Mark
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I believes he perpetuates some of the myths.
One of the assertions he makes in the article is some woods are only good for lighter weight bows. He is not the only one to make that statement. I read it yesterday when reading an article by Gerald Welsh about his first attempts to build a 200# yew warbow, and have seen it often elsewhere, most often about warbows.
I understand one typically make a heavier bow by making it thicker, but if a bow is scaled up properly in length and width also, it seems to me that wood properties do not limit draw weight.
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One of the assertions he makes in the article is some woods are only good for lighter weight bows. He is not the only one to make that statement. I read it yesterday when reading an article by Gerald Welsh about his first attempts to build a 200# yew warbow, and have seen it often elsewhere, most often about warbows.
I understand one typically make a heavier bow by making it thicker, but if a bow is scaled up properly in length and width also, it seems to me that wood properties do not limit draw weight.
Yes I also found this strange and would have to agree that I was always led to believe that since all wood has an elastic limit you must adjust bow design to be within those parameters. No different to a highly stressed flightbow pushing the limits at 40lbs? But then again I don’t have any experience with building super heavy bows - but for that matter how much experience does anyone have with 200lb bows? My point being I doubt many people attempt very high draw weight bows and if they do it’s probably on some special request ... so there might be at best some anecdotal evidence on the subject of other woods/ designs but basically it’s not like the average back yard bowyer goes out and says “I am beefing up my tillering tree because I am going to make a 200 LB bamboo backed Ipe today with non working recurved tips and a wide mid limb...
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If anybody mentions wood only being able to handle a low weight....I know that person doesn't understand bows....:) Either it works at a certain scale or it doesn't, if it does it can be scaled up or down. Honestly some people seem to think wood knows what type of bow it is in! Nope it simply feels the strain and responds accordingly.
When I was relatively new to bow making I met Pip. I was prompted by some other people there to show Pip my latest sinew backed osage recurve. His comments and attitude were a joke. He basially told me the bow was rubbish and would fail in time....
Well that bow is now about 14 years old and has shot many, many thousands of arrows at about 185 fps.....funnily enough it has never lost any performance.
Pip is trying to run a business but I certainly don't agree with how he goes about it.
Pat is correct with the adze versus elbow comment :)
Tommy - If you want any advise on UK woods please just ask. I have a wee bit of expeience with them and only the truth will pass my lips!
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Tommy - If you want any advise on UK woods please just ask. I have a wee bit of expeience with them and only the truth will pass my lips!
Thank you Bownarra - I definitely will - you have been a fund of knowledge and have been very kind sharing it with me - it is much appreciated.
I have found that contrary to Mr Bickerstaffe’s opinions, if you find the right forum, the internet is populated with many fine people who love to share the knowledge of things they are passionate about - and that doesn’t just go for bow making.
So many thanks to everyone who has helped on this “bow making” journey!