Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bentstick54 on July 15, 2020, 10:25:16 pm

Title: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: bentstick54 on July 15, 2020, 10:25:16 pm
On Osage in particular I have used dry heat,(heat gun) to make very minor corrections a few times. I have read that some use cooking oil along with a heat gun to help carry the heat into the wood more readily. Does using oil effect the wood in any negative way after correction is made. What happens to any oil staying inside the wood after the wood cools down. Will it soften the bending tendency of the wood itself in the long term? Say you heat 1 limb with only dry heat, and the other using oil, will the 2 limbs tiller out the same? Or will the limb with the added oil have a tendency to be “softer”?
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: Badger on July 15, 2020, 10:37:53 pm
The oil does not penetrate very deep into the wood, it stays right on the surface. Wood is only porous on the ends of a growth ring.
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: Pat B on July 15, 2020, 10:46:04 pm
I've used cooking oil with a heat gun for bending and correcting osage and other woods for many years without problems except trying too much of a bend. In those cases steam or boiling works best.
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: PatM on July 15, 2020, 10:55:38 pm
The oil does not penetrate very deep into the wood, it stays right on the surface. Wood is only porous on the ends of a growth ring.

 False.  Wood has structures for transporting from center to periphery.
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: Badger on July 15, 2020, 11:43:56 pm
The oil does not penetrate very deep into the wood, it stays right on the surface. Wood is only porous on the ends of a growth ring.

 False.  Wood has structures for transporting from center to periphery.

  What keeps wind barrels from leaking? I know they are all cut flat sawn with one ring running the length. I seriously doubt if it would go very deep.
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: Badger on July 15, 2020, 11:48:50 pm
 I was just reading that wood can transport through the sides but not the face of one growth ring, so it could absorb very small amounts into the sides but that would also be infinitesimal.
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: Flyonline on July 16, 2020, 03:43:06 am
  What keeps wind barrels from leaking? I know they are all cut flat sawn with one ring running the length. I seriously doubt if it would go very deep.

Not quite true - french/european oak is split, american oak is sawn. I believe it has to do with the pore sizes, but first hand I know that american oak barrels leak a heck of a lot more through the wood than french. There is also significant transfer of moisture through the wood, I believe we work on 5% loss per year per barrel in ambient RH. I can go further, but it's outside this discussion on oil.

Back to the oil, I've wondered if it can inhibit finish application/longevity later on or does a final sand remove pretty well all of it?
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: Dances with squirrels on July 16, 2020, 04:33:15 am
I have never, not once used oil to make heat corrections with a heat gun and have done it hundreds of times on a variety of bow woods. I try to use dry heat on dry wood, and steam or boiling on green wood... but haven't adhered to it 100%. Maybe I'm missing something. Why do some think oil is needed? What problem does it solve and how?
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: hoosierf on July 16, 2020, 05:06:49 am
It helps with scorching. That’s the only reason I do it.
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: PatM on July 16, 2020, 05:41:51 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medullary_ray_(botany)

  Oak is used for barrels because it has tyloses that relatively seal it.
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: Pat B on July 16, 2020, 05:49:57 am
With proper prep, I've never had problems adding finish to a bow I've used oil and heat on, not just a finish, not rawhide and other soft backings and not sinew backing.
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: Selfbowman on July 16, 2020, 06:44:12 am
I to don’t use oil in dry heat process. If you keep the heat gun moving enough it won’t scorch either.
Don’t know what’s right or wrong but that’s how I do it without problems. Now if you said it would prevent set I would be all over it. Arvin
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: bassman on July 16, 2020, 07:12:58 am
For deep heat treat I used to use oil, but not any more. With a Mighty Mite heat gun I can get an even heat treat with out scorching the wood with no oil. I have heat treated Birch, Walnut,and Elm to the point were  the bow's back was hot to the touch, and repeat the process 2 or 3 times before the bow was finished. The backs have held up fine. Birch,and Walnut are low mass woods. Elm is pretty dense, so I can get the Birch, and Walnut limbs heat treated in shorter order. The bows I made this way were 35 to 45 lb bows with 25.5 inch draw length tillered to 26 inches. May be why the backs are holding up just fine, and it sure feels like the heat is penetrating from front to back, but I will let you guys decide that. I know I am building better bows because of it.
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: bentstick54 on July 16, 2020, 07:54:03 am
Thanks for all your thoughts. It sounds like both schools of thought work, but whether or not there is a real advantage to using oil as part of the process is questionable. It sounds like it won’t hurt anything, but maybe there is no great benefit.
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: paulsemp on July 16, 2020, 08:28:01 am
I like using oil. I personally believe it helps the heat dig deeper before you scorch. I think you get a deeper temper out of it.
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: George Tsoukalas on July 16, 2020, 08:34:54 am
I am of Greek ancestry so I use olive oil. :)
Just kidding. I use bacon grease because  it's cheap.
Jawge
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: Dances with squirrels on July 16, 2020, 09:52:07 am
Heat corrections can easily be made without scorching the wood, without oil. If the wood changes color at all, the gun's too close and/or moving too slow.
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: bradsmith2010 on July 16, 2020, 10:07:51 am
ok if your not using  a gun, and using fire or coals,, I think the oil does reduce scorching,, but if you have a gun,, maybe its not an issue at all,,
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: bentstick54 on July 16, 2020, 10:17:25 am
Due to city code fire or coals is not an option.  :) Neighbors would turn me in.

Paulsemp, do you use it for corrections/bending, or just tempering?
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: DC on July 16, 2020, 10:55:31 am
Can you use a drying oil, like linseed? Maybe put a little finish on while heat treating?
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: Pat B on July 16, 2020, 11:41:48 am
I have always used oil for bending and correcting but no oil for tempering (heat treating).
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: Fox on July 16, 2020, 03:12:05 pm
I use oil/beezwax in my last heat treat  to help keep moister out and makes a nice finish... i dont believe it changes the depth of the heat treat if your using oil or not using oil. As for water/oil penetrating into wood.... all the different kinds of wood is different but in forestry school you learn that there are 3 kinds of wood that will hold water and not seep into the wood, white oak, Osage orange, and locust ( i probly forgot some) and i dont feel oil goes very deep on those woods. Now hickory it seems to seep quite deep. You can tell by heating oil into a peice of wood then carving down and heating the wood and the oil will seep out of the wood after carving maybe 1/4" or so.... long ramble   (lol)

-Fox
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: Hamish on July 16, 2020, 05:24:19 pm
When heating osage I used to occasionally get tiny cracks on the back. Using oil stopped this from happening.
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: Pat B on July 16, 2020, 06:02:39 pm
Sealing the back with shellac will prevent the checks in the back. It's easy enough to remove later.
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: Flyonline on July 17, 2020, 03:49:10 am
With proper prep, I've never had problems adding finish to a bow I've used oil and heat on, not just a finish, not rawhide and other soft backings and not sinew backing.

 :OK

Figured as much as lots of people do it, but wondered if there was another step in there to remove the oil etc. that was so obvious that it was never mentioned.
Title: Re: Dry heat vs. Heat gun using oil ?
Post by: Pat B on July 17, 2020, 08:00:58 am
I wash the back of the bow with Dawn dish soap and rinse with boiling water. I also wash the backing material with Dawn and rinse with warm water. This not only cleans the grease used when heating, finger prints and any residual oil in the wood and backing material off but preps the surfaces for the water based glues I use, ie. hide glue and TBIII.