Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: WhistlingBadger on March 08, 2020, 09:21:34 am
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Quick question, oh bow-making gurus: Am I correct understanding that backed bows are generally safer than self-bows for beginners? I ask because I had a bad injury a few years ago, and long story short, I really, really need to avoid hard whacks to the head. This emoji (--) does not make me laugh; it gives me nightmares.
So, when I take the plunge and build a board bow (spring is slowly coming and hopefully I'll be able to get outside to work in another month or two), would I be better off putting a backing on it right off the bat? It seems like a good alternative to wearing a fencing mask and bike helmet, which would make anchoring awkward.
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With your concerns I'd suggest something with a bamboo back, virtually bomb proof, and if it did fail it would de-laminate or spit collapsing gracefully rather than breaking into bits and whacking you on the head.
Del
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Thanks for the suggestion, Del. I need to read TBB1 again; I'm sure it addresses this and I just ordered a copy. But in the meantime, I appreciate the experience around here.
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A self bow with a pristine back IMO would be safer than a backed bow but that depends on the backing also. With a selfbow I prefer summer cut whitewoods so the bark peels right off leaving a pristine back. With wood like osage, mulberry and locust care must be taken to achieve a pristine back but I've never had a problem doing that.
I prefer hickory over boo only because I've had better luck with hickory backings and even though ta hickory backing is from sawn lumber the grain seems to hold together better. My boo backed bows haven't exploded but have lifted splinters. I'm sure that is because I wasn't careful enough when prepping the back.
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This may be the place for this. Does exercising a bow a few hundred times on the tree stress it as much as shooting it a few hundred times?
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Backing a bow can add a bit of durability ,..or peace of mind if needed,,.I have made quite a few bows in last 30 years ,..not whacked on head yet,..I think ur good to go,..using proven designs and methods
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DC,..I think the pressure on the string is a bit different,..when shooting
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Yes, the pressure on the string will be greater but how about the bow? If you exercise the bow a few hundred times successfully does that mean that it "probably" won't break.
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are you thinking of backing with a different wood lam or some sort of other materiel? fibers?
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This may be the place for this. Does exercising a bow a few hundred times on the tree stress it as much as shooting it a few hundred times?
From a structural standpoint it should be the same (or extremely close) for the compression wood on the belly, assuming you are drawing it to the same length. I don't know how the tension side would be affected during a shot and I could see that it would be different due to the dynamic effects during the shot.
Mark
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are you thinking of backing with a different wood lam or some sort of other materiel? fibers?
I'd probably do either rawhide or linen. I like the idea of sinew bows but not right off the bat. The other reason I'm thinking about backed bows is that I eventually want to cut my own bow wood, and straight, knot-free staves just don't exist around here.
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1 Use a proven bow design; 2. use a proven bow wood; 3. use straight grained timber; 4. compensate for faults like pin knots.
If you don't use this approach you increase your chances of a stave exploding on you. Most people get into trouble by not using .3, when making a board bow. You can apply 1, 2, and 4 but without straight grained timber you're wasting time if you want a safe, durable bow.
Linen or rawhide backing will give you a little room for error with a borderline board, they won't make a totally unsuitable stave into a safe and durable bow. You are still better of searching for a better board.
How do I know? I come from the school of hard knocks, or should I say head knocks.
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I always feel very very safe with a good backing. Gives me a good feeling. Did some ash backings (perfect straight grain) and sinew backings. Never broke one...but many unbacked bows. Just my expirience.
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If a bow really lets go it will cut through rawhide like it's paper. Not saying it doesn't help, It does, but the stave or board needs to have good integrity in it's own right for the rawhide to really be helpful.
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"Probably won't break" after a couple hundred shots. Not wild Choke Cherry. I got as much as 300 to 500 shots before they blew up, and mean blew up. One broke my glasses in two, and bruised my eye. Piece of the top limb let go. Weylin is right, two were backed with raw hide, and still exploded. Two were not backed, but made from staves, and I made them wide and long . I have one left. A 38 pounder. The only way I would ever shoot that bow again would be to sinew back it.That is what the natives did with wild Choke Cherry. They new what they were doing. Walnut was just the opposite. I have one that has a violated back that is still shooting good after many shots. Never broke the back on a Walnut bow ,and I have made quiet a few of them. Not all wood is created equal as you all know, and backing does not guarantee that a bow will not break with certain white woods. JMO
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I was referring to hard backings like boo, hickory or other woods. Soft backings are a different story. Some just add safety, others safety, durability and performance. With a good stave I prefer an unbacked selfbow over any other.
DC, I think when exercising you are also educating the wood to bend and recover. Generally when exercising you start off short and slow and work up to full draw, at least that's how I do it and the release(let down)is slower, softer. When shooting you pull to full draw and release. That seems to me to be more drastic.
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If a bow really lets go it will cut through rawhide like it's paper. Not saying it doesn't help, It does, but the stave or board needs to have good integrity in it's own right for the rawhide to really be helpful.
So, if a bow has to have good integrity (i.e. it has to work fine and be safe without backing) what is the point of a soft backing? It doesn't improve performance, so I always assumed the rawhide was on there for safety.
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If a bow really lets go it will cut through rawhide like it's paper. Not saying it doesn't help, It does, but the stave or board needs to have good integrity in it's own right for the rawhide to really be helpful.
True.
If you want a bow that can't lift a splinter and break it really is simple - sinew back it.
It's very easy to do. Your first go may not look perfect but it will have no ability to break in tension and give you a whack.
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I always recommend beginners to choose straight grained boards and back them with linen, silk or burlap for safety. At least, the first few. More on my site. Jawge
http://traditionalarchery101.com
Jawge
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If a bow really lets go it will cut through rawhide like it's paper. Not saying it doesn't help, It does, but the stave or board needs to have good integrity in it's own right for the rawhide to really be helpful.
So, if a bow has to have good integrity (i.e. it has to work fine and be safe without backing) what is the point of a soft backing? It doesn't improve performance, so I always assumed the rawhide was on there for safety.
It's a good question. If the bow is truly fine on it's own without a backing then it shouldn't have one, unless it's there for decoration. The bow will be more efficient without it. I often back osage and yew bows with rawhide if I'm sending them to a dry climate. They are perfectly good bows and wouldn't need a backing here on the east coast but if they're heading to Utah then having their tension strength bolstered with some rawhide seems prudent. Sometimes I reduce the sapwood on a yew bow and if it has a few pin knots I feel a little more comfortable if it has some rawhide on the back for some extra insurance. Sometimes I build a bow that is pushing the limits of reasonable length and i want to feel confident it will still last a long time so I back it. It's those kind of situations that lead me to use rawhide backing. If I have serious doubts about a bow because of dangerous knots, splinters lifting, etc. They just don't get to be a bow in the end, backing or not. It's not worth the risk.
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linen, silk or burlap for safety.
But do these actually keep the bow together during a blow-up? I have heard opinions both ways.
Undoubtedly good stave choice and safety equipment is prudent if your are concerned about getting whacked on the head, but hopefully this discussion can move beyond that. It would be interesting to hear of actual examples of the backed bows that held together and the backed bows that didn't, as WB has some very reasonable concerns and might like to judge from others real life bow failures.
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But do these actually keep the bow together during a blow-up? I have heard opinions both ways.
Undoubtedly good stave choice and safety equipment is prudent if your are concerned about getting whacked on the head, but hopefully this discussion can move beyond that. It would be interesting to hear of actual examples of the backed bows that held together and the backed bows that didn't, as WB has some very reasonable concerns and might like to judge from others real life bow failures.
:OK :OK :OK
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The first priority is to choose a good, straight grained board. Then beginners should back for safety. In my early days I remember silk keeping a black locust bow's splinters down. I think it was my third bow. Jawge
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My rawhide backed bows had so few failures over the last 30 years,,..that is my reference,,,and that pope and young stated their failures were reduced when they started rawhide backing,, really hard to prove,..I have made bows from staves that had to many issues to attempt a self bow,...and they were a success with backing,,,,etc etc etc
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pope and young stated their failures were reduced when they started rawhide backing,
failures reduced seems to indicate that the rawhide added some strength in addition to possibly adding safety by holding the bow together by preventing a back failure. I wonder how thick of a piece they applied ? do you remember where you read that Brad? the thicker the better I suppose, after all those guys were after some serious sized critters.
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I cant remember where, but it always stuck in my mind,, I think it was a book about them,, but I dont have it now,, I think there would be a point of diminishing return on thickness, rawhide can be really thick, deer skin thickness has always worked for me,,
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I think there would be a point of diminishing return on thickness, rawhide can be really thick,
Diminishing returns on performance and safety also? I'm guessing that if one were to desire more safety, than the thicker the better (even if it tends to slow the arrow somewhat). I am also supposing that if a guy were to put a bit extra thickness of rawhide on the back, the performance hit would be more noticeable with lighter arrows and less so with heavier.
there are two pope books here https://www.archerylibrary.com/books/ (https://www.archerylibrary.com/books/)
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Easy to test with chronograph