Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Russ on October 09, 2019, 07:44:24 am
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So i want to get my draw weight up but I don't know what muscles to train. I know your back, pecs, and shoulder, and biceps and triceps are secondary but what should i do to get my draw weight up to maybe 60#. I have been surfing the site and found that when people shoot higher # not as steady their lower draw weight bows become steady. I find that my 45# bow i have trouble not shaking. I can still get my shots within a water bottle but i can do better. any ideas?
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Build a high weight training bow. I read that the Turks used some kind of paper training arrow that acted like a parachute for training indoors, never seen one though, but they were supposed to only fly a couple of feet even when released from a war-bow. Maybe some one here has something similar?
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Since I have met you and know your build I would suggest sticking with 45# max, Your frame isn't made for a 60# bow, not yet anyway young man.
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Shot a 50# ish bow until you are tired. Then train the muscles that are sore the next day... lol
How old are you? Your body may not even be ready to train yet. Also, why are you interested in getting your weight up? I shoot 43-47#, I'm 36, and am very satisfied with that weight.
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Russell I would tend to agree with Pearl. Start out with something your comfortable with. Shoot as often as you can. Get your back and shoulder muscles helping. Forget what they call that right now but Clay Hayes had a good video on it I saw once a few years back. I like the way he described it. Something like closing a door with the back of your shoulder. Your arm should be like a rope from the elbow to the string. Pull with your shoulder and back.
Might be some exercises that would help, but shooting a comfortable weight bow and developing a consistent draw and form means more than shooting a heavy draw with poor form. Us smaller guys can still work up to a heavier draw but I think it's best for everyone to start with a comfortable weight and once that seems to light work your way up in increments. I know for me some bows I've made seem very light yet I give them to someone who seems pretty fit and they can't draw them as far as I can. Only time we use most of these muscles in this way is by shooting a bow.
Bjrogg
PS I've seen little Nate draw some pretty heavy bows. The kid shoots like a machine though
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Russell, take Pearly's advice. Be patient and focus on handling 45#s before you even think about heavier weights. Going from 45-60 is about a 34% increase. That's a significant amount and isn't going to happen overnight.
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Considering there are people who pull more than their body weight after serious training, sure 60# is possible for you. But is is better? If draw weight is a goal in and of itself, then yes. Personally my archery has improved more from underweight bows that I can shoot all day without discomfort compared to heavy bows where I’ll quit before practice is done. If your shooting problems are a strength issue, heavy bows could be good training, but maybe it’s a form issue and in that case being under bowed could be a quicker fix.
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Yeah if you are shaking at 45 lbs then that looks like your heavy weight training bow for the time being. No shame in that.
I was 6'1" and 125 lbs when I was your age and I doubt I could have pulled back a 30 lb bow.
If you want to weight train stick to core type moves and maybe throw in some back specific exercises. Squats, deadlifts, pull ups, shoulder press, bench press. I do bent over dumbbell rows (single arm) when targeting my bow muscles. You should be able to do sets of 10 comfortably with any weight you intend to shoot your bow with.
You will have to give it time though. Building up strength doesn't happen over night.
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Hard to beat pull ups and chin ups for all around upper body strength useful for drawing a bow. It's not exactly the same but the muscles used will get the right stimulus.
Rope climbing with hands only is also very good.
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Your body may not even be ready to train yet.
The body is ready to train from birth.
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What is your draw length and where do you anchor.
I saw a lot of short style draws in the US and I don't think they are so suited to heavy weights as it is mostly using the arms.
Del
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Russell a lot of it can be form to. I'm not saying I have good form. Honestly mine probably really stinks. But it's a stink I'm very comfortable with. It suits my purpose well and I think my muscles share the load pretty evenly.
It's kinda like stringing your bow. When you first try it's so hard. I can show someone way stronger than me how to string one of my bows. I can almost guarantee you that they will struggle with it. Once you develop the right technique it seems so easy. At least most of the time.lol
Develop a technique that seems comfortable for you. Comfortable and consistent. When it feels way to light go a few lbs higher. Your still growing. I was 5'.3" and weighed 115 lbs till I was 36 and got married. Now I'm 5.5 and 202. Believe me it's not all muscle.lol
Bjrogg
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a well placed arrow with only 12 inches of penetration is much better than a bad placed arrow with 20 inches of penetration... bottom line..gut
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Shot a 50# ish bow until you are tired. Then train the muscles that are sore the next day... lol
How old are you? Your body may not even be ready to train yet. Also, why are you interested in getting your weight up? I shoot 43-47#, I'm 36, and am very satisfied with that weight.
15 in almost exactly two months. I want to get my weight up because it extends my capabilities for shooting, 45# wont feel shaky, I can shoot higher poundage bows allowing me to make higher poundage bows, if given the chance to shoot a bow i would like to be able to draw it, and it gives me a goal to work towards. I just thought that while i start training again for this wrestling season i could work those muscle groups.
Oh! sorry! when i meant 45-60# i meant over time! I know i cant do it in a day, I was thinking that maybe i try to get to 60# in 6 months I'm already training for wrestling! I didn't have a weight room in middle school so im taking full advantage of it! looking at it im already doing everything that Bayou Ben says.
I agree that me, right now, i am not ready for 60# noooooo waayyy!! maybe 50, but that would be like when i first started shooting my 45 bow. Dont worry guys! I understand that I wont look like a body builder in one day!
Del my draw length is 26 when i dont have bad form and i anchor to my right canine tooth.
Yeah bj I think im shaking a alot because of form. but i should say its not super, earth shaking shaking, but just a slight tremble. a slight tremble can throw a arrow off a good bit at 20 yrds. then it also might just be my had trembling as it does that naturally. I dont have the steadiest hands!
+1 gut
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Pearly and Gut nailed it. Get really good with that 45--it will certainly do in a deer with a good, accurate shot. Shoot as much as possible, and shoot well. Once you're totally in control at that weight, consider trying a 50# or 55#. Go through the same process.
When I wanted to work back up to shooting my 60# bow after I got out of shape (injury), I bought a cheap, you-finish 50# hickory flatbow from Crowshead. I shot it until I was comfortable with it, then gradually started working the 60# back in to my practice sessions. At first I could only do a few shots with it before my form started to come apart. When that happens, there's no point in continuing. When you practice shooting poorly you're just reinforcing bad habits.
T
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gotcha Whistling, get good with my bow, listen to pearly to not push hard to 60, have good form.
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The best way to train for shooting a bow is by shooting a bow. Being in good shape is important but archery muscles are developed by shooting a bow. If you are shaking when drawing a 45# bow going to 60# could cause injuries. How often do you shoot and how many arrows during a session? One good training method I used when I started shooting(this was with a compound) was to slowly and purposefully draw the bow to my anchor, hold for 10 seconds and slowly let down. I would do this 10 times then rest. A bit later I'd do it again. When I started, my compound was too heavy for me but I wanted to be able to draw it to anchor with the least possible movement. By hunting season I could draw my bow to anchor, standing or sitting with very little other movement. I know holding a selfbow for 10 seconds is a no no so slowly draw to anchor, hold for 2 seconds, concentrating of a spot then slowly let down. Do this 10 times and rest. Also, and this is important because some folks I've known can't let down but release from full draw, do this without an arrow on the bow, just in case.
When you do step up to the target butt concentrate on your target, not just the target but the spot where the arrow WILL hit. With an arrow on the bow draw, anchor and release always concentration on that spot. Go retrieve that arrow and do it again and again, etc. Start out at 10 yards and do this 10 times then walk away and come back later. When you are consistent at 10 yards move to 15 yards.
When I shoot now I pick my spot, draw to anchor and release as soon as I hit anchor always concentration on the spot where the arrow WILL go, not where it should go but where it WILL go. If I find myself short drawing I will hold for a second or 2 before releasing. This helps me concentrate on my form, a good anchor and a clean release then I'm back to my normal shooting style.
45# is plenty enough weight to hunt with. You have to develop good form, good anchor, good concentration and good muscle memory. When I'm shooting I don't want to think about anything but where the arrow WILL go. Not form, not anchor, I don't want to even be aware of my bow or arrow. I don't want to think about ANYTHING but hitting that spot, and that takes your full concentration.
Back in 1999 I bought a new glass lam longbow from Mike Treadway. The first year I had that bow I calculated I put 10,000 arrows through it. I was shooting 100 arrows a day for most of that year and I was trying to concentrating on each shot, my form, my anchor and my release. This helped me with the muscle memory and once I was comfortable with that I only shot a dozen or 2 thoughtful shots a day. A month before hunting season I would only shoot one arrow a session. That was either in the early morning or late evening when most hunting shots happened. I also shot from an elevated stand(my front porch) at my comfortable height and shooting range(from a few feet out to about 25 yards). Believe it or not those closest shots were the hardest.
And one more thing to end this epistle...if you are tired, aggravated, mad, frustrated or for any reason you can't concentrate, put the bow down and walk away. Bad habits are very hard to get rid of but very easy to obtain.
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Hard to add much to that Pat. Repetition, concentration, proper form. The increase in draw weight will come over time, peak, and then end up back where you began at some point.
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Lots of good advice here. Some more things to think about - if you can shoot the 45# bow for five or ten arrows without shaking, then you start to get tired, that's a bit different than being uncomfortable on the first or second shot. Shooting fewer arrows is fine if you can control everything. If that is the case, maybe try for several shooting sessions instead of one long one. You could also make a bit lighter bow for long(er) distance practice, and shoot a heavier one a few feet from the target so you can really focus on working the right muscles, getting to full draw, having a good release, etc. That's good practice anyway. Or, since I think you just have the one bow now, shoot a few from longer range, and when you get a bit tired, move really close so you don't undo your good practice by worrying about zinging one off into space.
One thing you don't want for sure is to feel stressed about shooting because you are a bit overbowed and your muscles are overtired - that can be a good way to develop target panic. I got a 55# recurve when I was about your age (late 1900s), and 45 or 50# would have been a lot smarter. I had such bad freezing and short drawing that I quit shooting for over 10 years. It may have happened anyway, but the heavy weight did not help.
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(Pat - you covered a lot of what I said, but I had a lot of time invested at that point and just posted anyway!)
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Wow! Ok! Lots of good stuff! Ill work on getting my bow shooting comfortable first then move on from there.
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No problem TimBo. By the time I posted 11 others had jumped ahead of me.
Russell, I don't know what style of shooting you do but if you shoot instinctively I learned from reading G Fred Asbel's "Instinctive Shooting". I found it to be very informative and I still shoot using G Fred's method. The book isn't expensive but I'd be happy to lend you my copy if you'd like. I bought this book in 1988 and years later Fred signed it for me so it is special to me but if you take care of it you are welcomed to borrow it.
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My neighbor boy is on a football scholar ship, and is 20 years old. Strong as an Ox. He shakes pulling my 45 lb . self bows. I am 72 soon, and don't shake with my 45 lb. self bows. Technique, and certain muscle groups. Better shooting under your comfy draw weight with total control, and no bad habits than with a bow you can't control ,and may injure your self with at a young age.
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Look for an old cheap Glass 40# bow that you don't care about. Draw it and hold it as long as you can. Repeat.
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Russell,
About all I can add is several sets of push-ups to the exercise routine, and for "let down"', make a 6-8" Loop of rope around the string and your wrist; this will allow you to control the let down of the string without dry firing(which we know is hazardous to you health!). You could also get some heavy rubber bands used by physical Therapists, they come in all weights. Heavier isn't necessarily better, and you will likely continue to gain strength as you grow. Finding old bows is also a way to build your arsenal, but can be hard on the wallet.
Hawkdancer
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Nothing to add to the good advise already given on form and good practise.
As for simple exercises. Do lots of pull ups on a 1 inch edge. Nail a 1x1 up to a door frame somewhere. Round the edge over so it is comfortable.
Pull ups with your palms away on an edge will train the forearm muscles (finger controllers!) as well as shoulders, lats etc...Rope climbing as Pat mentioned is also very good for developing grip and all round upper body strength. Dead hangs are also very effective. Another superb forearm exercise is to get a short section of broomhandle. Drill a hole in the middle for a length of cord. Thread it through with a knot on the end. Then tie a weight on the other end. Hold with both hands and turn the broomhandle to raise the weight. Continue raising and lowering the weight. Have fun!
When I made my first few bows I was about 30 and rock climbing at a reasonably high level, I could shoot 65# easily straight away. I climbed 3 or 4 times a week and trained a lot :) When I was your age I started doing pull-ups everytime I went out the back door. After about a year I could do about 25 straight arm pull ups. Have at it, the strength you gain now will stand you in very good stead later. Also don't forget to stretch - it is just as important as exercising.
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I will add another voice to the pile saying there is no better exercise for shooting a bow than shooting a bow.
And to add yet another voice to that pile, this vid has an interview with Joe Gibbs, one of the top heavy bow shooters in the world, and he talks a bit about his training methods. He started training around your age. https://youtu.be/1w8yHeF4KRk?t=300
No need to go as hard as him, but he has good advice.
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If you are shaking at45# try going down to a35# bow and hold the arrow back for 10 seconds then release the arrow. You will be there in no time. But I shoot all my hunting bows at about 45-50 pounds And that gets the job done for me out to about 20 yds. Don’t remember killing anything over 15 yds though. It’s better to loose the arrow than just let the lighter bow back down. Does more harm than good. And yes Pearl knows his stuff. Arvin
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If you are shaking at45# try going down to a35# bow and hold the arrow back for 10 seconds then release the arrow. You will be there in no time. But I shoot all my hunting bows at about 45-50 pounds And that gets the job done for me out to about 20 yds. Don’t remember killing anything over 15 yds though. It’s better to loose the arrow than just let the lighter bow back down. Does more harm than good. And yes Pearl knows his stuff. Arvin
Dont worry im not shaking that bad! I almost got it under controll.
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Add me in on the shoot your bow to build the strength group. It’ll train your muscles to work the way you want them to. Which is just as important as the base strength level.
A few tips for the strength building. My #1 rule for in the gym lifting weight is PROPER FORM (same goes for shooting, and mine needs work there). With good form you’ll build strength in you muscles and joints, with bad form you’ll prematurely wear down your joints. In the grand scheme of things the specific excercises variation doesn’t make much difference as long as they are working the same muscle group. So start with simpler motion excercises and DO NOT go above a weight you can control with proper form, and by control I mean on both directions of motion (as in not dropping the weight in dead lift) Once you have good control with a reasonable weight for your build, start adding in the excercises variations. And don’t forget to work your core, is the connection of power from your legs to your shoulders. With a strong core you are less likely to injure your back and is much easier to maintain proper form. I’m loving to do excercises that make me focus on a tense core through the workout. I even do two days of specific core days, rotational and in-line movements. Don’t forget to add in calisthenic excercises: push-ups, pull ups and animal movements. There are lots of variations of these you can do, in addition on to adding weight to make them more difficult.
A great full body excercises that has more focus on shoulders, that’ll be great for archery but I started doing for Brazilian JiuJitsu is the Turkish get up. Its great for building shoulder strength and most importantly stability. Wat h several videos on how to do this one correctly as it’s a bit more complicated than it looks once you start adding on weight. With this movement you start flat on your back with a dumbbell extended out in on hand and you essentially stand up with the weight above your head, then you lay back down. This last one has been a great step in helping my lead shoulder from wanting to buckle under 100# bows when I mess with them.
Hope that helps,
Kyle
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if you keep shooting, and exercising consisently ,,, being able to go up in weight will come to you,,, lots of great advise from above,,
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Lots of good advice above. I would keep shooting your 45# bow until you have no shaking at all. Concentrate on good and consistent form. As you get steadier with it, start holding it back at full draw a little longer, but release before the shakes move in. The longer you can hold at”good” form, the stronger your needed muscles have become. Then you can move up maybe closer to 50# and repeat. Go slow or you will develop bad habits and form that will be hard to break.
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Great thread. I am retraining, on my 31 pound bow. TIRED OF MISSING, almost all on paper, but missed a deer this summer.
My plan might help you implement the above advice. I am making more use of back tension, the push towards the target a little, reading Shooting the Stickbow, that stuff. Going to shoot in a bow I am making for a friend, 40 pounds, but 37.5 at my 27" formal draw length. Then, I will tiller in a sinew bow, more like 40 pounds, maybe 45 pounds. I can hold a 45 pounder for ten seconds easily, dead still, no shake.
So, maybe get, or make, a 35 pounder for training, and yet keep shooting the 45. Keep us posted.
(I have been some what over-bowed recently. 56# or so. Started as an excursion into short bows. Accuracy wise, I was not ready beyond 15 yards)
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Work on your rotator cuff. If that goes then it doesn't matter what muscles you train.