Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Russ on September 30, 2019, 11:38:20 am
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This bow is a friends and i need some help telling him what to tiller. Thanks! Heres what i think!
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I dont know aboit the little dot on the left in the circle.
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Its hard to tell by these pics, but it looks like you are off to a good start.
For your pictures next time, it helps if you dont have anything in the background that has defined lines (such as the power strip and black cable) running at odd angles. It creates optical illusions and makes it more difficult to spot hinges or differences between the two sides.
As far as building that bow, at this point just dont draw it harder than your target weight. You should get those limbs thinned slowly and evenly until they bend easily with like 20lbs of force, which isnt much. If you look at a draw weight vs draw length profile for most bows the first 10" of draw only produces like 10lbs. Just be very mindful and dont create any hinges in the process, us long even strokes with your tool. Where your at in the process, it really helps me to use a micrometer to take measurements. I want to make sure each limb is the same dimension, and check for thin spots I accidentally created while roughing out the bow. When you get to the point that you have a nice even bend and can draw about 10" thats when the real tillering begins.
But at the moment, so far as I can tell is going good.
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I am not with him. Im helping him via texting, so thats where things get tricky.
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I am not with him. Im helping him via texting, so thats where things get tricky.
oh, well it looks like he is off to a good start.
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You are right to tell him to stay away from the handle...I don't like the abrupt change (not sure I can call it a transition) between limb and handle, and that spot is already working.
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You are right to tell him to stay away from the handle...I don't like the abrupt change (not sure I can call it a transition) between limb and handle, and that spot is already working.
I agree. If it were my bow I wouldn't pull it anymore until those fades are transitioned to the handle. That would be my #1 priority. I would go about an inch into the handle (making the fades 1" longer on each side) and smooth that transition as best I could. Look at the fades on Leon's last bow for an example of a smooth transition.
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Tell him to make a tillering gizmo.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,61422.0.html
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Yea Eric but the thing is, hes going full primitive (I think) hes only using tools he makes for. I don't know if he'll agree to making one but ill send him the link.
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Those fades need addressing NOW before he puls on that string anymore.
Bayou X 1
HH~
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how do i help him? remove everywhere else?
edit- you ment the handle fades, sorry
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I try to have at least a 14" transition from fade end to fade end. So a gradual slope.
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The only place it's bending is out of each fade. It's actually hinging at the fades and stiff everywhere else.
Maybe he should consider using a scales, tillering gizmo and hand tools till he can develop a eye and feel for tillering first. Then he can have a much better chance of making something work going "Primitive".
I think you can see his problem. Yes advise him to stay completely away from the fades. Don't remove anything from them. He needs to understand that the most stress is at the fades. From there the limbs should tapper in thickness and or width towards the tips. There's less stress at the outer limbs therefore they need to be thinner and or narrower to bend. His draw weight on this one will already be limited by the hinge at his fades. Everything past that is going to have to have wood removed to get it to bend and take stress off those fades.
Bjrogg
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Taper the handle into the limbs both ways from the middle.You may end up with a working handle,but that hinge will go away. Then you can go to work on the rest of the bow.
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So basically like this?
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Or this?
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Personally, I would avoid thinking so much of making a circular/scooped shape, since I think he will end up with the same problem. I would mark off 4" for the handle, and for now just make a more-or-less straight line to the thickest remaining part of the limb. It can be scooped and shaped a bit as tillering progresses. I'm not sure how long the handle is now, so this is a rough guess, but something like this picture maybe.
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Sorry my Gimp lines aren't great, but it is an approximation after all!
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This is not the greatest photo because the right end is cut-off, but anyway it shows the Measurement of the Fade Transition 14". If the bow is to stiff you can always take away material form the fades to get some more bend, but easy does it..!
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Ahh ok. Were settling with timbos because i cant keep changing stuff or hell get really frusturated
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On your next build just do as shown in the photo and ya shouldn't have any issues.
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I think the general idea is the same; that last photo just has a longer handle section in the middle. I like mine around 4", but they can be longer for sure. The important part is the smooth transition. Good luck!
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if the handle area needs to be modified so that the grip becomes too short, he might consider converting the design to a bendy handle bow, especially if it has been pulled further than shown in the pics and a hinge has already been created.
this would make it easier for him to see the already weakened spot easier, and tiller the rest of the bow down accordingly.
how much has the handle been narrowed in width compared to the widest part of the limbs?
a smaller point, is that the left limb has some reflex that the right doesn't, so it will appear to bend less as tiller progresses
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It appears your friend is enamored with the idea of making a bow just like we all were at some time. The difference is he didn't do his homework and dove into the project without the proper reference material on how to go about it.
I had one friend that loved archery and tried to make bows but had never been able to get a working bow, said he had made about 50 attempts Five minutes at my house and I knew what his problem was, he got in a hurry and rasped on his staves without a plan and butchered everything he touched. He could ruin a perfectly good stave in a matter of minutes.
I showed him proper bow layout and how to slowly remove wood for the desired effect. Getting him to slow down was the hard part but he he managed it with me looking over his shoulder and made a shooter bow. He went on to make a bunch of good bows, he just needed direction.
Tell your fried to learn bow making first then go primitive if he chooses to.
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i wish, but hes a youtuber and has completely set his mind on getting a bow, he is trying to go from primitive to modern age with only the tools he uses. his job is youtubing and it is hard to work around with what he doesn't know
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Have your friend join PA and start w new bow with our help. A few questions and pics from him will get him a lot of sound info to get him to the next step ane eventually a new, good shooting bow...if that's what he wants
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Ill tell him, but I don't think he actually desires to really pursue bow building right now, but just to get the video out and learn about the next thing. Hes more focused on going through the timeline as a whole and not focusing about one thing in particular. him starting over on a new bow may really frustrate him a lot.
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Hardheadedness will keep him frustrated, joining PA will help to eliminate that frustration....but it up to him. ;)
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Let him try a few, break a few. If he is at all interested in continuing on he will at some point wise up...Or not.
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Patience, Grasshopper, patience! He needs to learn patience! Try to get him to at least read this thread! I assume he is in your peer group, age wise? As Pat B said try to get him on to PA! Nothing against YouTube, except that it doesn't have closed captioning, and is a bit crowded. Good luck working with him.
Hawkdancer
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Yup I learned enough to break my first bow on YouTube. I learned to become a bowyer on this site and with the help of true, honest criticism.
I'm not so much not liking the shape of his fades. I don't like the abrupt bend just out of it. Especially the left limb. It's the only place it's bending and he needs to get everything working together
Bjrogg
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Patience, Grasshopper, patience! He needs to learn patience! Try to get him to at least read this thread! I assume he is in your peer group, age wise? As Pat B said try to get him on to PA! Nothing against YouTube, except that it doesn't have closed captioning, and is a bit crowded. Good luck working with him.
Hawkdancer
No he is not in my age group, i was watching a video and he mentioned making a bow. He cut down a stave with a axe, split jt and forgot to seal it. I just commented saying that he needs to seal it and it went from there. He asked me questions and i helped. Then i started to ask questions to try to help. Its kinda jard to work with him because it can take a day for him to answer and in that day hes worked even more on it.
I try not to tell people my age (for obvipus reasons) but also because people are so quick to discredit me because of my age. Thats why i didnt really tell you guys till a little bit ago.
I think hes being paitient but honestly, untill he answers i dont know what hes doing with it.
I dont know if he'll visit the site but i dont know, its up to him.
Hes a really cool guy but the communication is just hard. Thats whats kinda frusturating, the communication.
Yeah BJ those fades are scaring me
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He says hes not going to be able to get it closer :-\
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I think he means on a long string. Im working on it.
edit- when I said "im working on it" i ment im thinking of what he should do next.
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is this the guy that does the "how to make everything" channel?
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yes
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Well, the handle does look better. The right limb is getting a big hinge - he should mark that spot and just remove wood everywhere else until both limbs are balanced. If he is just wanting a quickie, emergency survival type bow to see if he can do it, he might not need to do a lot more after fixing the hinge issue. I will be interested to see if he can salvage it and end up with something shootable (for his purposes).
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where are you seeing the hinge? i see it right where the tips start to get thick. I told him to thin the right tip because that looks more like a Syiah (if thats how you say it) while his right tip has some bend but is still stiff. I just dont want to miss anything.
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It is a bit hard to tell from the photo, and it could be the angle, but it looks like the right limb is bending more right in the center...right under the black fan in the background. If the limb edges are not straight on to the camera, that may not be accurate, but either way the right side is bending more than the left.
If it is a hinge and doesn't like the tillering gizmo idea, have him try using his thumb and index finger as thickness gauges - it is easy to feel variations in thickness that way, and he could do worse than using that method to get things more even.
Even if he doesn't end up making more bows, if he has a big YouTube following other people may get the bug from his video...perhaps he could direct them to PA if that happens for more in-depth discussion!
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I'm seeing the same thing Timbo is. Still have no idea how much weight he is drawing it to.
Also agree with Tim about feeling thickness with thumb and index finger. Don't remove any wood from the thin areas that are bending until the rest is bending. He has to learn that to make a bow or teach anyone else to. That is absolutely essential for the bow to be a dependable weapon.
Bjrogg
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he braced it and I told him to not pull it past his target weight in the beginning. Its looking good now that its not a long string, just needs to losen a smal area by the fades. the fade was extending too far (like 3 inches past where it should have) and those 3" were stiff.
Problem is that he thinks he heard a tick so instead of pulling it to 40# but to 30#. im having him scour the bow for any sign of a crack and round the corners. Ill tell him the finger thing once we figure out the crack problem (if there is one). Ill probably send him what you guys said and tell him theres more of the tips on the Primitive Archer forum.
hes looking for A 40# bow so I told him to go 45# because of set because he wants to Theoretically be able to hunt with it.
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Is this bad? How can we fix it?
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If it isn't a problem, it is a challenge, if I am seeing correctly! Btw, you can help me build a bow any time! You know to ask questions!
Hawkdancer
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Everything is bad about this bow, the back, the layout, grain runout and the tillering, the bottom line is you can't just hack one out and expect success. I suggest starting over.
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Thanks hawkdancer! yeah its a real challange.
Ill suggest it Eric. hes not really into this waiting thing. he says its dry but took him about a week to dry his bow because he put it in a heat box with a ton of dehumidifiers while it was roughed out. I dont think its dry though.
Ive told him that his first bow has a big chance of breaking. hes already pulled a splinter and has heard a "tick". Ill suggest him restarting but untill hes chosen to restart or it breaks, im going to continue to help when he asks.
This has become pretty stressful and scary.
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Heres it right now
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That picture makes me cringe...I do hope he is wearing safety glasses.
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The fact that it has become stressful and scary is not a good sign. Maybe best to back away at this point. In the interest of his safety though, he needs to know that that is not "popping a splinter" - it looks like the whole growth ring is about to go at that point. I assume it is on the back of the handle? There are some major grain violations there. The limbs are bending better. If it were me, I would encourage him to do a new one, using his improved knowledge and the experience he has gained with tiller (if that stave had a clean back and was bending like it is now in the first photo, no one would have been too concerned!)...then let him make the call. He may have to learn the hard way. You might also mention not to put his face in the direction of travel when the bow blows up!
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That picture makes me cringe...I do hope he is wearing safety glasses.
thats exactly what he was doing in this pic! he was cringing because this is when he heard the "Tick"
The fact that it has become stressful and scary is not a good sign. Maybe best to back away at this point. In the interest of his safety though, he needs to know that that is not "popping a splinter" - it looks like the whole growth ring is about to go at that point. I assume it is on the back of the handle? There are some major grain violations there. The limbs are bending better. If it were me, I would encourage him to do a new one, using his improved knowledge and the experience he has gained with tiller (if that stave had a clean back and was bending like it is now in the first photo, no one would have been too concerned!)...then let him make the call. He may have to learn the hard way. You might also mention not to put his face in the direction of travel when the bow blows up!
I told him that at this point I would restart, but its all his call. I told him the tiller doesn't look too good and the pros and cons of staying on this bow or switching. to me switching looks more enticing. I told him to wear saftey glasses and to be very careful! I told him that he may be risking physical injury by continuing. I told him that I am here to help but that he needs to be patient.
the reason its stressful is because I cant really portray whats more important than the rest. my texts have no emotion, no fear that he may get hurt, no sense of urgency, no stress on whats important, and that makes it hard.
What scares me is he is a little impatient. he told me last night that he was going to get it shooting tomorrow. That really rushed me when he asked me for help and it caused a stress fracture in goodness knows where! he lacks the experience that will tell him to stop pulling and to sit down and think. I really should back out, but hes done all this and come so far and if i were to leave him hanging he wouldn't know what to do if this happens, or that, which can hurt what people think about traditional bowyers, as people that work hard to get you somewhere but then leave you hanging expecting you to know what to do. I expect that to be the worst case scenario, or maybe that's a irrational fear of mine. I want to build positive things upon the bowyer community! I mean this guy has 1.5 mil+ people that look to him. its probably that this guy feels even more stress then me, he feels the pressure to perform well, and that he needs to get this done. I dont know.
I have to say by helping him I feel like I'm more than just a high school student. I'm more than someone that's considered weird but i'm someone that can actually help someone. I feel like im not just a kid that likes bending wood, but someone that can achieve more than what people tell me what i am. Me helping him really makes me feel like I can be more.
im sorry that this reply kinda turned into venting. I didn't mean for it to go that far.
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I have seen a lot of his videos, and they are generally entertaining, but he does a lot of the craftsmanship half-way. Tell him his best videos are when he gets an expert to guest star with him and work through the project-- like the cast bronze swords hanging on the wall in the back ground. Isn't he up in Minnesota? If he got someone like Marc or Mike (Swampman), who lives near there to walk him through the process, it will turn out better. My guess is this one will break anyway and he will have to start over, which he has had to do on numerous other projects. If I am not mistaken this is part of his series to move from the stone age through modern technology. His stone and copper axes were good, but the wooden handles he put them on were a disaster.
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The last person I'd help is someone who doesn't want to be helped. I say stop doing his homework for him. Can't believe I even read through this post considering the guy is someone who probably makes money off of YouTube and he's havin other people do his homework for him. All he's probably going to do is turnout a half-ass bow and post a how to video on YouTube that will do nothing but mislead other people.
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The last person I'd help is someone who doesn't want to be helped. I say stop doing his homework for him. Can't believe I even read through this post considering the guy is someone who probably makes money off of YouTube and he's havin other people do his homework for him. All he's probably going to do is turnout a half-ass bow and post a how to video on YouTube that will do nothing but mislead other people.
I hate to be negative about someone getting involved in bow making, but I agree with this... Have the guy join the site and ask his own questions. If he doesn't want to learn from experienced builders, then let him be on his own.
Taking an hour to read through Gordon's build would have avoided every question on this thread
primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=53195.60 . Add the www. to the front the address.
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Plus2, Ben! I don't know a lot, but that thing is going to blow up! If it is already ticking, the fuse is lit! (--). Might be why I don't go on to YouTube very much! Russell, this guy is obviously an "adult" who thinks he knows a lot, but still has a lot to learn, and doesn't know that! Kudos to you for your help to him this far, but he needs to join in here if he is serious about bow making. I don't think I would want to hunt with him!
Hawkdancer
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Oh, I see that now. I need a little bit to think.
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I think you should let him continue working on it and when it breaks on him if he wants to figure out how to make a real bow he knows where to come. I kinda like that he doesn't seem to be afraid to try things. This attempt will most likely fail but so did my first one. If he gets to even shoot one arrow though. Who knows what switch it might flip. I haven't seen any of his videos, but if it's a how to build a selfbow. Especially a hunting selfbow. I'd really rather the guy actually knew how to make a bow.
Bjrogg
PS left limb is still stiff mid limb all the way to outer. Right limb stiff outer. I wish he was using a rope and pulley so he could stand back and watch it. With a scales.
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I didnt read the whole thing, looking at the last pic,, maybe rawhide back, and even the tiller,, )P(
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My fear would be that the bow will survive to shoot 1 arrow on his u-tube video before breaking,thus teaching someone else the wrong way to make a bow and then maybe they will get hurt by following bad instruction.
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:-\ Bentstick, it happened.
I feel personally responsible for this bow and how bad that tiller is. Im sorry. I dont know why i do but i feel horrible. He didnt talk to me from the last pic to this video being done. I should have taught him, not told him what to do. People look up to him and now they see a bad tiller that they may think is ok. Im sorry again guys.
h ttps://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DfjgATg5y0wI&ved=2ahUKEwiH67Ts3o_lAhXkna0KHTymC-4QwqsBMAB6BAgGEAQ&usg=AOvVaw2HEoa5nn5fioqgghvW2vW1
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Not your fault.
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Definitely not your fault. I read every post made before commenting. You did everything you could to help him, as with everybody on this site. He showed no interest in learning how to make a selfbow, will probably never have a desire to make another one. His sole interest was only to produce a video, so he could move on to the next stage of human evolution. Heaven forbid he would have had to feed or protect himself with his bow. You did good trying to help.
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I just watched it....I understand why you feel dismayed. Truly not your fault. I understand what you meant by people thinking that's what a primitive bow is supposed to be. The compound guy was delighted to convey the point that was what you should expect from a wood bow. He certainly did you no favors with the shout out. Don't let it get you down. This was all his doing...plain and simple