Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: IrishJay on January 26, 2019, 10:41:29 am
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I'm currently working on a R/D bow out of black walnut, but I'm looking at some of the other staves I have curing, and I have a nice piece of ash I'm thinking might make a nice plains gullwing bow. Does anyone have any experience with this style bow? What are the strengths/weaknesses of this design? How do they shoot?
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i have never made one,, I have made some bows inspired by that design,, but I have only read positive results from the guys that do make them,,,
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Being new to bowyering, I'm enjoying trying out different designs to see which I enjoy making, and shooting, the most. Brad, when you say "inspired by," what parts of the style did you keep, and which did you change, and how were the results?
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the ones I made were longer,, not quite as a dramatic bend as some of the Native bows,, I think I was just lazy, it was alot of wood to bend,, :) and I could get a pretty good straight limb bow to shoot well,, I think if your gonna make one,, the shape will hold better if you sinew back it,, but I think you will enjoy the build and shooting one,,check out Jim Hamms first book,, bows of the Native Americans, he makes a sinew one in there,,
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I'm planning on going pretty long myself, probably 71" ntn. But sticking with the extreme reflex at the handle and deflex on the outer half of the limbs of the traditional plains design. So I guess mine will be more "inspired by" than it is traditional. I'm curious to see how it will compare to an R/D bow of similar length and draw weight.
I'd like to make one of each, with the tips about inline with, or slightly forward of (<.5") the handle. I just want to compare the shooting characteristics of 2 bows that have the same amount of backset, but achieve it through different limb geometries.
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I don't know a lot about em...so naturally i had to try 4-5 to see what happens :BB
All sinew or rawhide backed, 4 osage, 2 yew...
Its gonna be a few months though lol.
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Also the threads i read on these seem to indicate they didnt shoot all that impressive...i wonder why. Does the deflex allow for more draw length from a short bow, but make it a bit "sluggish". I dont read so much as i "do" and then Chrono results and such. Not trying to hi-jack your thread. You kinda got me pumped up again about continuing forward on these. I have 2 short ash staves to so am interested as to your question:)
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I am guessing,,,if designed properly,,.they will shoot well without being sluggish,,,,if reflex is incorporated in the design..
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It's hard to exactly pin down the attributes of the design but whatever they are it was enough for it to become a dominant design for a large part of a continent and one that hung on in the face of repeating weapons. No other bow style has really done that.
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Pat, that's very true, and I think it's a big part of the reason for my intrigue with the design. It seems that nowadays it's more common to deflex at the handle and reflex at the tips vs reflex at the handle and deflex at the tips. But, then again the design wouldn't have been so historically popular if there weren't something to it right?
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It's hard to exactly pin down the attributes of the design but whatever they are it was enough for it to become a dominant design for a large part of a continent and one that hung on in the face of repeating weapons. No other bow style has really done that.
That is definitely a good point Pat, but perhaps other bow styles have done that. For comparisons sake, the English/Welsh longbow, the Asiatic/Eastern composites ...the design that worked(for whatever technical reason) prospered on throughout the region and time period?
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It would be fun to make one (f)
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They're all fun to make, that's why we're here right?
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It's hard to exactly pin down the attributes of the design but whatever they are it was enough for it to become a dominant design for a large part of a continent and one that hung on in the face of repeating weapons. No other bow style has really done that.
That is definitely a good point Pat, but perhaps other bow styles have done that. For comparisons sake, the English/Welsh longbow, the Asiatic/Eastern composites ...the design that worked(for whatever technical reason) prospered on throughout the region and time period?
The other ones did not even carry on against single shot weapons.
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Northheart, nice profiles.
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Where did that gull wing design originate from? I’m sure I’ve read this before, just don’t remember.
Tattoo Dave
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Hard to pin that down. It was popular through the whole mid-Continent. Also variations are found in other parts of the world as well albeit in longer form.
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The pictures I’ve seen show reflex at the handle and deflex mid limb with the tips being even or just a bit forward of the handle.
What are the chances that the bows were just reflexed at handle and the deflex is a result of set?
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Morgan, it is a possibility, but I've seen photos of modern tribesmen making bows, supposedly in the traditional way passed down through their tribe, and they definitely put the deflex in intentionally. I'll look around for the pics, but they used rocks and ropes to form their bends and then let the bow cure in the sun to set the shape.
I think to get a good comparison between an R/D design and a gullwing (D/R?), I'm going to build 2 board bows. Same length same draw weight, same limb width, etc. I'm working on an R/D from a stave right now and I was going to do a gullwing from a stave next, but then I got to thinking that staves are not uniform, and any character or uniqueness in the staves would skew the results. I think working with boards will keep things more homogeneous and give a better "apples to apples" comparison of the 2 limb profiles.
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It seems to me that it's an awful lot of unnecessary work if there wasn't some gain. I suppose we could use the old archaeological fallback that it was because of "spiritual purposes". Maybe they made them look like gullwings so the arrow would "fly" further. It's a puzzlement :D :D
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Maybe I'll do the 2 board bows a build along, open to design suggestions, and then do some Objective testing such as speed and penetration, and subjective test such as feel.
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Speed would be a good starting pointl
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Pat M, Gull wings are cool bows. Yes they were used in the times of repeating firearms, but it didn't work out too well for the Indians.
Its quite obvious that they didn't have the means to design or manufacture their own firearms, and when they couldn't acquire repeating firearms for all their warriors they used the weapons that they could manufacture.
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I know of one bow maker who has a theory that reflex handles were the result of D shaped bows taking set ,and losing power.Simple solution was to heat, and reflex handle to re gain some power. His theory, not mine, but may have some merit. Who really knows if it was done because of that ,and how many times it may have been done, and by what tribes.
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Well, I ended up with a cracked limb while flipping the tips on the R/D I was working on, so I'm going to go ahead and start a long gullwing out of an ash stave I have. I'll keep everyone posted on its performance.
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Pat M, Gull wings are cool bows. Yes they were used in the times of repeating firearms, but it didn't work out too well for the Indians.
Its quite obvious that they didn't have the means to design or manufacture their own firearms, and when they couldn't acquire repeating firearms for all their warriors they used the weapons that they could manufacture.
But it seems like most of them still carried one rather than ditching them altogether like many others did.
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Maybe I'll do the 2 board bows a build along, open to design suggestions, and then do some Objective testing such as speed and penetration, and subjective test such as feel.
Keep in mind the low brace height common to the gull wing.
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In target archery a deflexed designed handle makes for a more accurate bow creating less torque. A reflex handle gives you greater speed with a lower brace height but less accuracy and more torque. Look at any recurve bow in the Olympics they are deflexed sacrificing speed for accuracy.
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I use gull wing designs with extremely reflexed staves of oceanspray or Vine maple. I just floor tiller them while still green and then let them finish drying. 66 to 68 inches has worked best for me.
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Sage, I get what you're saying regarding the balance between speed and accuracy, an yes Olympic recurves are deflex handle. But, all recurves are deflex handle. If bow doesn't deflex at the handle and radically reflex at the tips, it's not a recurve. From a physics stand point having part of the limb forward of the handle wouldn't change the torque about the handle. Torque about the handle would be affected by the distance from the handle to the limb tips, the distance from the tips to your sting hand and the angle between those two lines.
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All recurves are not deflex handle.
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How would a gullwing molle hybrid work out? Like others said the gullwing stuck around for a while and probably there were reasons. I'm wondering if stiff tips or molle-like levers would take advantage of the reflexed handle and mid limb area?
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Pat, you're correct I was mistaken. The majority of modern (i.e. glass) recurves and take down recurves are deflex handle, but not all recurves are.
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I know of one bow maker who has a theory that reflex handles were the result of D shaped bows taking set ,and losing power.Simple solution was to heat, and reflex handle to re gain some power. His theory, not mine, but may have some merit. Who really knows if it was done because of that ,and how many times it may have been done, and by what tribes.
that's a good idea to think about.
I always had the idea that all that curves where maybe a way to pack a longer bow in a small length making it more suitable on horse
So i tried a quick measuring on NorthHeart image and it looks like I was completely wrong
the curved to straight ratio is only 1,006 not a big difference
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My extra long (73.75" ttt) gullwing is rough shaped and top limb floor tillered I'll be floor tillering the bottom limb and steaming in the reflex tomorrow. Given the length of the limbs, the angle on my bending form and allowing for some "spring-back" when the clamps come off I'm expecting 4.5" to 5" of back set.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/bow%20pics%202/20190129_001732_zpsuqo9p0dn.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/bow%20pics%202/20190129_001732_zpsuqo9p0dn.jpg.html)
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Profile shot.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/bow%20pics%202/20190129_002916_zpsexnxexhk.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/bow%20pics%202/20190129_002916_zpsexnxexhk.jpg.html)
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I know of one bow maker who has a theory that reflex handles were the result of D shaped bows taking set ,and losing power.Simple solution was to heat, and reflex handle to re gain some power. His theory, not mine, but may have some merit. Who really knows if it was done because of that ,and how many times it may have been done, and by what tribes.
that's a good idea to think about.
I always had the idea that all that curves where maybe a way to pack a longer bow in a small length making it more suitable on horse
So i tried a quick measuring on NorthHeart image and it looks like I was completely wrong
the curved to straight ratio is only 1,006 not a big difference
Thats what i love about this forum, yall got the technical stuff down. I wouldnt even know where to begin to initiate those little red and yellow measurement lines, lol.
Irish Jay, i think its awesome you decided to take on this little experiment to measure the differences. I hope you see it thorough i think were all interested in the results. :OK I do however wonder if making a really long version (of what was typically a shorter bow) will skew the results?
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I still plan to do the matching board bows, probably in the 64" to 66" in range, this long one is just for fun.
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Bent the reflex into the handle today. With both limb tips touching the wall I measured 3.75" to the back of the bow center handle. The top limb currently has a bit more reflex than the bottom, so tomorrow I'll be resteaming and to bring that bottom limb forward a bit more. Hopefully that will bring me to right around 4" of backset at the handle. Then I just have to deflex the outer halves of the limbs and it's time to tiller.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/bow%20pics%202/20190131_214805_zpsmrgmfc15.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/bow%20pics%202/20190131_214805_zpsmrgmfc15.jpg.html)
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Enjoy the speed and and I think you'll feel the volatility in the bow hand. >:D. I think you might find the secrets of the design will lie within the fd curve.
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I would study lots of pics of actual bows before committing to putting the deflex too much in one spot.
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I don't think u will need to deflect it,...it will do it on its own...
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Hard to say how the shape was achieved but it would be practical to just let it form on its own by bending.
Then the argument might be whether heated in set is exactly like bending set.
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good point Pat,, I was just thinking that it will slightly deflex on its own,, and the reflex in the handle is gonna bend out a bit,, if the profile was not what you wanted you could add more deflex,, I think that might slow the bow down,, so I was opting for letting it hold as much tip forward as possible,,it should still have a gull wing shape,, just not as dramatic as some other bows,, I have always thought of just adding sinew at the handle too keep it from bending out..which mine usually did,,
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I got the reflex evened up, so now I have fairly even tips and 4.5" of backset at the center of the handle. After considering all of the comments regarding deflexing. I think I'm going to heat in a little, but not much. The idea being to start the bends where I want them to achieve the gullwing shape, and the hope that any set the bow takes follows the curves I've already established.
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I've never tried a gullwing bow but I've always wondered if they made gullwings because the branch/limb was growing that way and they made a bow out of it. Just used what was already there naturally. I have seen many grow that way around here, especially in osage. Thought about cutting one and trying it, just never have. I guess the question then becomes do you use the tension side or the compression side. It would be interesting to see if it would work.
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this would be my concern or I would be thinking about this,,
if you bend too much deflex in the limbs,, when your back set starts to bend out,, your tips of the bow might be behind the handle a bit,, making it shoot like a bit too much string follow,, or slow,,if the appearance of the bow is your main goal ok,, but if you want it to shoot at least as good as a straight limb bow,, say 160 fps with a 10 gpp arrow,, it wont be able to do that with the tips too far back of the handle,,
ok,, maybe shoot it a bit before bending the deflex,, so you know how much of the handle reflex is gonna come out,, that way you dont over do it,, :) )P(
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Limb profile with the deflex added mid-limb, hand is still backset 2" from the tip. Please ignore the messy glue job on the riser block, all will be made right with some sandpaper.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/bow%20pics%202/20190205_170604_zps6ailsxc8.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/bow%20pics%202/20190205_170604_zps6ailsxc8.jpg.html)
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The tillering process will put all the deflex you want in the bow.As said above if you end up no set, some back set or a little string follow be happy with that.Go slow when you first get it on the long string. You will end up with a bow with a bigger belly than normal to get proper brace height. If it finishes up right it still makes a nice bow.
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Well here it is with all of the heat forming complete. The handle is 2.5" backset from the forward-most part of the limb curve, which is 15" in from the tips. From the tips, the handle is 1.75" backset. The limb tips are ever so slightly angled back toward the shooter. I'll probably start tillering in the next day or so, I'll keep you all posted on what kind of set it takes and how it holds the shaping.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/bow%20pics%202/20190206_182557_zpsz0bvolul.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/bow%20pics%202/20190206_182557_zpsz0bvolul.jpg.html)
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You killed it with the riser block. The handle needs to move to be authentic. Looks like you removed a good deal of the stave to make it flat there too.
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Yeah that was done purely out of necessity, as I got some cracking in the handle area when I bent it.
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It's on the tree, after the first few pulls to 50# I lost about 3/16" of backset from the forward curve of the limb to the back of the handle, in the subsequent 20 or so pulls, tillering from 50# @ 10" to 50# @18", I haven't lost any more.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/bow%20pics%202/20190212_140242_zpswne29r8s.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/bow%20pics%202/20190212_140242_zpswne29r8s.jpg.html)
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/bow%20pics%202/20190212_145942_zpsh8a265av.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/bow%20pics%202/20190212_145942_zpsh8a265av.jpg.html)
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you really wont know much till you string it and tiller and pull to full draw 100 plus times,,
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Yeah, I'm just taking it slow and being very careful of where I remove wood to keep it bending evenly along the curvature that I shaped into it. The tips already seem to have taken more set than the midlimb area, so I'll just keep it slow and see where she ends up.
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Made more of this design than any other I would guess. Sweet shooters. I agree with Pat in that the handle should flex a bit.
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She's finally braced. I've been taking tiller very slowly on this one to get things bending in all the right places and keep as much of the gullwing shape as possible. Worked the long string out to 50# @ 29.5" then shortened the string up a bit and repeated until I got down to shooting string length. The pic is 4" brace height with zero twist in the string. Unbraced the handle is 2" backset from the midlimb curves and about 1.25" from tips to handle.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/bow%20pics%202/Resized_20190219_015508_zps4k4pni6a.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/bow%20pics%202/Resized_20190219_015508_zps4k4pni6a.jpg.html)
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Could we see an unbraced picture?
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Here you go, one unbraced pic.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/bow%20pics%202/20190219_132018_zps48oj2idb.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/bow%20pics%202/20190219_132018_zps48oj2idb.jpg.html)
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Have u drawn the bow with short string to see the weight
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With the shooting string its 50# at about 24" so I have a bit more tillering to bring it back out to my 29.5" draw length. As mentioned above I've tillered it out to 50# @ 29.5" 3 times so far, shortening the string up a little each time. I'll see if I can get my wife to take a pic while I draw it on the tiller rig later so you guys can see the limbs bend.
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Here it is with the shooting string (AMO 72" Dacron), drawn to 50#. The dark line drawn on the 2×4, just above the scale, is my 29.5" draw length.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/bow%20pics%202/Resized_20190219_215233_zpsutd9vide.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/bow%20pics%202/Resized_20190219_215233_zpsutd9vide.jpg.html)
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that looks good
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Yes it does. It’ll be interesting to see how it performs. Good work.
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Thanks for the kind words gents. It'll probably take a couple days for me to work out those last few inches of tiller as I'll be taking it slow to keep them even and such. But I'll keep you all posted.
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Still working on finish sanding, but shes far enough along to put a couple test arrows through. I dont have a chrono, but by eyeball I'd say she seems pretty fast. Low brace height makes an arm guard a requirement as it bites the wrist pretty hard. Still has not taken any additional set.
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First off, sorry for the Lazarus action on this old thread. I'm still working on this bow, after sanding it down with 60 grit and toasting the belly she's sitting at 54lbs @ 29.5" So I'm probably going to give it a few more scrapes and re-toast because I want to be at 50lbs. I figured this was a good time to put some test arrows through it before final sanding with 300 grit, stain and tip overlays.
So, after putting a few dozen arrows through it I can say its shots well, and fast, though it's not the smoothest drawing bow, it stacks up a bit at the end of the draw, hence I'm taking the 4lbs off.
My question to you guys, what causes string thrum? As I said it shoots well, but it has the most string vibration at the end of the shot that I've ever seen. Is there anything I can do to minimize this with my final bit of tillering, or dampen it with the mass of the tip overlay?
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Here are a couple of full draw pics, for any who have been following the build.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/bow%20pics%202/20190309_191103_zps0uoggdxj.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/bow%20pics%202/20190309_191103_zps0uoggdxj.jpg.html)
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/bow%20pics%202/20190309_191208_001_zpsxcvqikbg.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/bow%20pics%202/20190309_191208_001_zpsxcvqikbg.jpg.html)
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Can you post a pic drawing the bow with an arrow?
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Reducing the tips as much as possible without bending will help
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Brad, thanks for the advice. I have about 60 arrows through it now, the reflex from the handle to midlimb is holding nicely. But, it is taking some set from midlimb to the tips. I'll post an unbraced pic shortly. With the set in the outer limbs the draw has gotten much smoother and while I haven't pulled it with the scale yet I sure its lost a little weight. So I'm going to continue shooting it as is for now, to see where the set ends up before I mess with it any further.
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Unbraced, midlimbs are about 1.5" forward of the handle. Limb tips have about .25" string follow.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/bow%20pics%202/20190310_183227_zpsxmslvbxr.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/bow%20pics%202/20190310_183227_zpsxmslvbxr.jpg.html)
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/bow%20pics%202/20190310_183206_zpskvlrgpbs.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/bow%20pics%202/20190310_183206_zpskvlrgpbs.jpg.html)