Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: IrishJay on December 29, 2018, 05:42:35 pm
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So, I have 2 staves from the same black cherry log, one with deflex, one with reflex. I had pretty good luck with the deflexed stave using linen backing coated in polyester resin, limb tip overlays made with layers of felt coated in resin. It shoots well, and just needs some finish sanding and a few coats of tung oil. 38# @ 28" 67" ntn. Top limb is a little stiff but I didnt want to take anymore off because the draw was already pretty low.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/Bow%20Pics/20181229_132614_zpslr7rjv3n.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/Bow%20Pics/20181229_132614_zpslr7rjv3n.jpg.html)
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/Bow%20Pics/20181229_194806_zpsct6hgdae.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/Bow%20Pics/20181229_194806_zpsct6hgdae.jpg.html)
I'm getting ready to start (its clamped into my table clamp cooling from some heat straightening right now) on the larger reflexed stave. Planning a working handle 72" ntn ~50# at 29.5" After the success with the last piece from this tree I'm feeling brave and thinking about leaving this one unbacked. Anyone have any experience with unbacked black cherry?
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/Bow%20Pics/20181229_191207_zps0vkrwxyn.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/Bow%20Pics/20181229_191207_zps0vkrwxyn.jpg.html)
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Bow looks good. I agree on the bottom limb. You are doing well. Jawge
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Thanks Jawge, trying to learn from my prior mistakes so I can move forward and make new ones ;)
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Yup, top limb is stiff but it's a nice curve. Is there any chance you can turn it upside down? This is one of the reasons for leaving the handle til last :D
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Alas no, shelf is already cut in. Next time I won't do that until I'm closer to, or at final tiller.
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Can you flip the bow over making the top limb the bottom and the bottom the top?
Great minds, DC.
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I've never even seen Black Cherry but I've heard of a lot of unhappy people that tried to make an unbacked cherry bow. At the very least use all 72" and as much width as you can. The reflex is not really your friend in this case.
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Nice job Jay. I agree about the top limb, but Rome wasn't built in a day. You should be proud of this one. Keep um coming! )P(
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Yeah unfortunately I did this before I tillered, so I cant flip it, but I'm pretty happy as is. It's a pretty cool feeling to cut down a tree and take it all the way to a shootable bow. Now just finish sanding, tung oil, and daughters foot prints (I bought an ink pad, I going to make a "camo" pattern on the back with my 1 year old foot prints. ) and this ones done. The other stave is straightening nicely.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/Bow%20Pics/20181229_202918_zpsrbzav90w.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/Bow%20Pics/20181229_202918_zpsrbzav90w.jpg.html)
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/Bow%20Pics/20181229_211748_zpsstadbtjh.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/Bow%20Pics/20181229_211748_zpsstadbtjh.jpg.html)
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Thanks Jawge, trying to learn from my prior mistakes so I can move forward and make new ones ;)
Well, that's the ball game. You are well and truly messed up for life. You have made a shootable bow and have discovered not only it is possible, but YOU can do it. Down the rabbit hole you go, no looking back! No tree in sight is free from being molested with your eyes, undressing the bark and staring at it's stave-like attributes, you perv!
Here's to a new year and to new mistakes. (seeing how the old ones are boring and predictable!)
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DC, I think it is unbacked black cherry heartwood bows that were the problem and not ones made with the sapwood.
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I think I'm going to start tillering with it unbacked and just proceed with extreme caution and frequent, thorough inspections of the back. If anything starts to look suspicious I may end up putting backing on at that point.
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Nice work Jay. It’s a great feeling to get your 1st shooter :BB
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Well! Now you've gone and did it! So, Congratulations! New and unusual spirits will haunt your dreams causing weird ideas about how to make this or that stave work! Welcome to the coven, you have been bewitched, and bitten!
Hawkdancer
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DC, I think it is unbacked black cherry heartwood bows that were the problem and not ones made with the sapwood.
Good to know. That makes this better :D
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Back in the early days of PA a guy wrote an article on Black Cherry bows and no mention was made of backing.
Tim Baker showed an unbacked Cherry pyramid bow in TTBB.
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Good to know. I've got a good ring on the back of this stave and the other piece from the same tree took well to bending so hopefully this on will go well. The backing on the other bow looks nice enough, but it really is pretty wood so it seems a shame to cover it up if I dont have to. I have a total of about 3 hrs into heat straightening at this point, with just the kink in the far limb to take care of. Second pic is from earlier in the process for comparison.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/Bow%20Pics/20181230_143751_zpsbmszot2b.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/Bow%20Pics/20181230_143751_zpsbmszot2b.jpg.html)
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/Bow%20Pics/20181229_191207_zps0vkrwxyn.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/Bow%20Pics/20181229_191207_zps0vkrwxyn.jpg.html)
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So I went to draw the first black cherry bow earlier and heard a small tick. Upon inspection I saw the resin/linen backing had developed a crack. I put it on the tillering rig and gave it a few pulls and a whole section of the back popped off. I removed the rest of the backing and there is no damage to the natural back of the bow. I've worked it pretty well on the tillering rig and hand drawn it several times, it seems to be working well, although the loss of the backing did lower the draw weight several lbs, so it's not going to be a hunting bow anymore. I guess I should have used tite bond instead of resin for the backing. The resin doesn't appear to have penetrated or bonded to the wood at all, it just seemed to have formed a shell on top of the wood surface.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/Bow%20Pics/20181230_224236_zpsosebltih.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/Bow%20Pics/20181230_224236_zpsosebltih.jpg.html)
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/Bow%20Pics/20181230_224232_zps3ld8fthv.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/Bow%20Pics/20181230_224232_zps3ld8fthv.jpg.html)
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/Bow%20Pics/20181230_224209_zps1au785hm.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/Bow%20Pics/20181230_224209_zps1au785hm.jpg.html)
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I seem to remember reading somewhere that Polyester Resin doesn't bond well to wood. There has to be a reason that everyone uses epoxy over polyester.
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Well lesson learned there, but at least this gives me more confidence going into the larger unbacked cherry now, as the first one is still shootable without the backing.
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Can you clean up the back of your first bow, and re- back it using a better suited glue?
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I already cleaned the back up, I think I'm just going to leave it as is unbacked.
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Nice and straight.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/Bow%20Pics/20181231_135255_zpsywbo3yyw.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/Bow%20Pics/20181231_135255_zpsywbo3yyw.jpg.html)
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Congratulations! What a great start. Would love to see the bow once you get it dressed up with those footprints of your daughters. What a great idea.
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On the bow that the backing popped off of I think I'm going to do a little experiment. I'm going to reapply a linen backing to it with tite bond II, then glass cloth and resin over the linen. It won't be a true traditional bow anymore, but it's to light of draw to be good for much so I figure I may as well take a shot.
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please dont put the glass on it,,
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If you put glass on your bow I'll have to move this to "Around the Campfire". I doubt the glass and resin will stick to the TB glue, anyway, at least not well enough to hold up to the bending. Might be time to set this pone aside or give it to someone and make another.
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Ok I'll put that idea on the back burner for now. In the meantime the other stave I'm working on, which had a good bit of natural reflex, was a bit uneven so I evened up the flex and I'm starting to shape it with the surform.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/jayres83/Bow%20Pics/20181231_161004_zpshlu9iylc.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jayres83/media/Bow%20Pics/20181231_161004_zpshlu9iylc.jpg.html)
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If you backed the bow with linen then you can't call it unbacked
The first bow I ever made out of Black Cherry was unbacked, it was also mostly sapwood. I made the bow in the Mollegabet style, back then they were known as Holmegaard.
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Marc, there are two bows being discussed. One was backed until the backing popped off, the other I'm just starting and planning to leave unbacked.
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Regarding your first bow. If you have enough length for your draw length then you can pike the bow an inch off each limb and flip the tips. Depending on the bow, I would think you should be able to salvage whatever weight was lost on that back.
That said, what you tried to do with the linen and poly resin would probably work if you used a good ( smooth on or gflex type not 2 ton style) epoxy resin. I would not paint a layer over the back and build up epoxy as you did with the poly. I believe for good adhesion you’lol need a rough surface on the back like 50 or 60 grit sanded. Personally, I would pike it, toast the heck out of the belly, flip the tips and see what you can get away with, but I like selfbows. If it don’t HAVE to have backing I don’t want it to.
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Morgan, I feel kind of foolish, with all of the options I've considered for getting that weight back piking it never crossed my mind until you suggested it. Just ordered a shorter string for it, I'm going to take an inch off each tip and leave it un backed.
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So I think I'm going to follow Morgans advice and pike the bow that the backing popped off it's currently 67" ntn and drawing 32#@28" How much length should I take off of it? I want to maintain the 28" dl, just increase the weight. If I could get it over 40# that would be great, but I really just need to get it over 35# as that's Pennsylvania's min. dw for hunting deer. Again this bow is for my father who has shoulder problems, so light is good, but it needs to be light and legal.
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How much non bending handle length do you have? Have you heat treated the belly? If all you are looking for is 3 pounds then toasting the belly may do it with no piking. That can throw off tiller though. If it were mine and I was piking it for a specific but small weight gain, I would start by cutting string nocks half an inch down from what you have now. Exercise the limbs and check the weight. If you have 8” of non bending handle + fades, I wouldn’t go less than 64”. You’ve gotta have a pretty minimal rigid handle or a Bend through to get a 28” draw with less than 64” length safely.
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Good advice on second set of nocks.your dad could warm up that shoulder with the lighter weight and then change to other nock .
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It bends through the handle, I was thinking either 66" ntn or 65"