Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: FilipT on March 23, 2018, 11:57:25 am
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Usually I don't post on this part of forum but since I will start making my own arrows for a first time and have some confusions, I figured I will post that here among the experienced fletchers.
I have access to materials/parts, I have made spine tester and downloaded dynamic spine calculator but can't for some reason wrap myself around the idea in what order do I make arrows! TBB vol 3. offers info but I am not completely sure.
Is this what the process looks like? Please feel free to correct me. :OK
1. Do I use wooden shaft of desired length (for example 31") and put it on a spine tester to measure its static spine?
2. Is the next step putting arrow together and measuring its weight?
3. Inputting all the information in the dynamic spine calculator?
4. When I get dynamic spine am I finally ready to sort arrows suitable for my desired bow and those weaker/stronger put away for some other bows?
Tnx
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You can adjust the static spine by reducing the diameter but you probably knew that. :D
Another thing. The best way to test dynamic spine is by shooting the arrow.
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If you are making the arrows from a board or stave, I suggest just making your arrow with a thumb plane and reduce as needed until it flies right for you. you might use spine measurements to help duplicate more arrows. reduce the middle third to control spine, and reduce the outer thirds to match weight. you can easily play with various tapers. (price a commercial barrelled shaft :o)
a lot of what you read about "making" arrows could be better called "assembling" arrows from off the shelf components, where one has to make selections from different grades of parts. The dynamic calculator is a good example of this method as it actually list commonly available components.
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I do it a bit different. I plug in my desired demensions to the calculator, tip weight, length, material, 3 feathers, etc. and use that to figure out which arrow weight to match my bow. I use 3rivers dynamic spine calculator. You do bow and arrow all at once and get the 2 numbers. Than I go whittle some sticks that I cut from a fir board and Once its round I check spine. It seems the right ringed boards I usually pick are always in the 70-80s so I chuck the arrow into a drill and sand it with most the sanding in the center to drop spine. And I’ll do that till I’m within a couple pounds than use fine grit paper to get it spot on. But remember the calculator gets you close, do 3 arrows at first and then test and refine before doing a batch. And write down the info of which bow likes what! I weigh at the end and usually they’re all close enough. I have a chronic for velocity.
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Just to mention, I will be using beech dowels. They have really good grain and are straight. I was told that they would be suitable.
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Willie make s a valid point, one might consider building arrows and assembling arrows may be two different things.
so a bunch of this stuff you will know already- but i will just fire away.
all wooden shafts are measured on 26" centers, so cutting your shaft will not affect the static spine- unless you go less than 26 of course :)
now shortening will affect the dynamic spine of course.
one can quite accurately affix weight values to most arrow components, so you can get quite close to an estimated arrow weight, before you even start.
this is how i build my arrows, granted i am using pre-made parallel shafting.
1.have an accurate draw weight on my bow for my draw length- i check that!
2.taking the draw weight, style of bow and my draw length i refer to my chart for getting a starting point in static spine.
3.put one coat of sealer on, put a nock on and field point, and bareshaft them
4.once i have a static spine and arrow length tuned , i thengo ahead and build the arrows.
5.a good idea to group tune after building a few. (bareshaft, fletched field point and fletched broadhead) they should all be hitting the same spot.
some points to remember.
for the average to good shooter, out to 20 yards, it will be hard to tell 30 or 40 grains difference in mass between the shafts- there is still significant velocity at that stage, and the gravitational difference is still minimal at that stage.
i believe that having the same foc makes a more significant difference on point of impact than most things( spine excluded)- i did cover that in another post on here titled " interesting" http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,62862.0.html
remember when bareshafting, to have the arrows still showing slightly weak, as adding the fletching and cresting and crown will stiffen the dynamic spine.
now the better tuned your arrows are, the smaller fletch you can use, which changes the spine less, is affected by windage less, increases velocity, possibly less noisy, but it will be less forgiving of form errors.
its all a trade off :D
after building the arrows, i dont go back and weigh them, with the same components etc, thats not a big issue. but then again my average hunting distance is 5 to about 12 yards.
too me, spine is waaaaay more critical than mass. within 10 to 20 grains is just fine, i think. Unless of course i was shooting at an olympic level.
good luck, and dont forget the pics
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Thanks TSA, you managed to clarify some things.
Can you tell me how did you get static spine after the point no. 4.? You wrote that you "bareshaft" them and in the point 5. you mention that you got static spine and then you can build an arrow.
Also where does my spine tester fit in all this, I mean at which stage of process?
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ok, sorry if it was a bit vague.
so i look at the charts, taking all the variables into account- decide on a static spine, then maybe choose a spine above and a spine below- but mainly focus on the one on the charts.
then i bare shaft.
after trimming and shooting them all, till i have one that flies as i want it, i use that static spine i started with- before i start, i clearly mark the static spines on the shaft in pen- so that figure doesnt disappear.
i know, this whole static spine, vs dynamic spine can be a bit confusing, in a way i wish the industry would have used a different word other than dynamic spine- it can be very confusing- was for me in the beginning.
this is my opinion. focus on the static spine, its a hard tangible number a person can work with.that never changes.
the flight performance of an arrow will change dependant on many factors, point weight, tail weight. length , taper, diameter etc etc.
kinda, dont see that as the spine, see that as how you can best manipulate the static spine to suit your bow. there is really no difinitive way to measure the dynamic spine of the arrow, we just know that we can manipulate the given spine of an arrow, to "BEHAVE" like a different spine, but the spine measured, on the spine tester stays the same.
for example if we take a 50# spine arrow, but increase the point weight from 125gr to 150gr the arrow should start behaving like a 45# arrow. the static spine is still #50 , as measured, but the behaviour has changed- crazy stuff innit it ;)
hope that helps some
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sorry, missed the second part of the question.
the spine tester is used after making the shafts, to ascertain the static spine- in fact its more commonly referred to just as spine, the whole "dynamic spine" thing confuses the issue here.
so build the shafts, then measure the spine- wooden arrows are measured on posts 26" apart- irrespective of the finished arrow length, or your draw length. its just an industry standard.
now you have a spine value or number that you can refer back too when you want to build more arrows for that bow.
as was mentioned in other comments here. i would see what spine i needed according to the charts. start building one arrow, checking the spine continually- reducing diameter, until you have the spine you want to bareshaft with, leave the shaft long. Then bareshaft tune it and see how that works- if you need a stiffer or weaker arrow- build the next arrow accordingly, and bareshaft it. when you have one that flies well, now you know what spine you will need- then build the other shafts to that spine requirement.
for most woods- some better than others, you will finds that the wood around where you took the first shaft out of, will all produce similar spines.
ie same Rings per inch, same side of the tree, etc etc.
your spine tester just gives you a repeatable value- its a reference point. you would then tune the arrow to the bow, and the bow to the arrow to get the best flight that you can!
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I managed to learn a lot from your posts and now I must organize it all in step to step process. I will write it here and can you tell me have I got it correctly?
1. Put shafts on spine tester, measure their spine and write it.
2. Use the chart and select shafts that are more suitable for my bow and put ones that are not aside.
3. Put the point and make/put nocks on them, but not yet feathers.
4. Do the bareshaft test of these arrows.
5. After I am content with them, do a batch of them and put feathers.
In all this, can you link me a chart that you use? Do you use excel calculator for all this or just chart? And last, have I got anything wrong?
Thank you.
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I build my arrows like Wayne. Except most of mine are built from shoot shafts. I think a spine tester is more helpful for this. It's really not needed if you are building arrows from parallel shafts with already know spines. Like Wayne said the measured spine of a arrow stays the same but the dynamic spine is effected by many things. Length of arrow, point weight, the width of your handle at arrow pass. All of these things effect the dynamic spine or the way a arrow acts like it's spine is. I agree with Wayne spine and weight front of center are the two most important things in my opinion. I know bareshaft testing sounds complicated and it can be time consuming when your not even in the ball park but it is the only way I know of to test Dynamic spine. Bareshaft testing is another whole thread but there are many posts about it here already. I highly recommend at least trying to bareshaft a arrow. I shoot every arrow I make for a bow bareshaft. I know people have complained they broke arrows bareshaft testing. To me if you arrow is so far off that it broke hitting target so much sideways it wasn't ready for fletching anyway and it wasn't the right combination to build a dozen other arrows to that static spine, arrow length, head weight combination. It's a little hard to understand bareshaft test until you try it and see how arrow behaves. Just try shooting arrow without fletching from about six yards. If it flies sideways it's not properly Dynamic Spined to bow. Consistency in form draw and release are important but if you arrow flies sideways you've got bigger problems than form.
I say give bareshaft a try. When you figure out the combination that works for your bow you can repeat it by using spine tester to make another shaft to the same static weight as your properly tuned arrow and then make it the same length and head weight. Then shoot it bareshaft and see if it flies straight.
I hope that's clear as mud now.
Good Luck for me bareshaft testing was a real eye opener
Bjrogg
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Sorry I posted over top of you FilipT. I think you've got the order right. Not sure how familiar you are with bareshaft testing but you might want to read up on it and don't be afraid to ask questions about it. I would also suggest that you mark your arrows so you know which side you have against arrow pass. Don't want to go through all this and fletch arrow backwards.
Bjrogg
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When making shoot shafts I use a sizer also to match my shafts to get them in the ball park of each other.Besides a grain scale and a spiner.Usually shoot shafts like dogwood will be very close to each other in mass weight /spine and diameter.I can get matched sets of dogwoods then.It's just holes drilled through flat antler of sizes from 9/32"/5/16"/11/32"/23/64"/and 3/8".
Also I've seen type of string can make a difference too.B50 string because of it's stretch usually requires a shaft 5#'s weaker than FF string because of it's stiffness.In short a self bow non center shot using FF string will need a shaft 5#'s stiffer than using B50 string.Sounds confusing but after making enough shafts it's easy to understand.
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what type of bow do you shoot, and i can put a chart up here for you :)
that list is pretty much how i do mine.
but like all things in trad archery, there are a lot of ways to get the job done!
like ed says, there are so many variables which effect dynamic spine, string material, string diameter, string mass, silencers, serving, arrow tail weight, brace height, draw length, shaft diameter, arrow pass, point weight, arrow length, and many more too :)
Brian is correct imo. bareshafting can be a stumbling block- but its actually quite simple- and once you understand the principle- its such a valuable tool!
here is the best video i have ever seen on the subject>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGOPiriLbcM
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Thanks, Wayne for posting the link to the video. Very simple and minus all of the mumbo jumbo.
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This thread delivers knowledge with each post. I didn't even expect to learn so much in just a day, considering that this part of forum doesn't have too much activity lately!
@everybody
I heard of bareshafting and I first saw it on Grey Archer youtube channel but I never attempted it before. Of course I will do that from now on, but first I am still waiting for some things to arrive from ebay.
@bjorgg
That makes sense. Maybe I will even get lucky and have to do too much before I realize what suits my bow haha.
@TSA
Thanks for this link. The bow I will use will be 50#, 66" ntn selfbow without arrowshelf. Arrow will pass 1" above the center of bow. Distance between pass and middle of bow is probably 1/2". Not sure though. I will probably even flip the tips.
Notice how I talk in future tense. I mainly used before bows of various lengths and draw weights but currently I am making that one specific bow to end them all LOL. I want it to be my main one through which I expect to put thousands of arrows. For that one I want arrows tuned as closely as possible.
P.S.
Is dynamic spine calculator in excel in fact a substitute for the bareshafting?
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WELL, yer just a big fat liar!!!!
building just one bow to end them all :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
'fraid to tell you my friend, yer just like us, an addict- theres no such thing as just one bow :laugh: :laugh:
you are most welcome.
i love this forum, greatest family of folk out there.
i am also on a few sailboat forums- you wanna see a mess- join a sailboat forum!
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Wayne I was thinking the same thing. Just one bow that's crazy.lol. I think he's trying to say just one main bow that he's wanting to get set up to be his main shooter. I remember when I started making bows and just had one and broke it. I've been making them two at a time ever since. Nothing worse then no bow.lol
Bjrogg
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Lol no, I don't plan to stop building bows ever. bjrogg understood correctly, it is supposed to be my main shooting bow, the one that I will try to really hone on my skills. Btw, there is a worse than having no bow. It is having no wood at the shed. I am almost now at that stage because last autumn didn't allow me to collect much wood, bad weather and lots of work regarding college stopped me.
TSA, is it possible to get a bigger picture, I barely see anything there?
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ok, i will see what i can do :)
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i have been meaning to redo that spine chart for the longest time.
thanks for the kick in the seat of the pants.
i need to re-do it in word, so that i can save it as a picture- and lose the excel watermark- also a bit fuzzy.
sorry i am a bit of a techno-peasant when it comes to 'puters ;)
so here goes...
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Things are more visible now. So what I see here is that I need for example static spine 45 - 50 for 50# at 28" bow. But since I want my arrow to be lets say 30", than I would need as a reference 50 - 55 spine, am I right?
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Do you have a 30" draw or do you just want 30" arrows? You need to add 5# in spine to the arrow for every inch you increase in length and for every 25 grains of point weight over 125 grains. so if you add 2" you need to got to 55-60. That is a rule of thumb that gets you close. You still need to bare shaft shoot the arrows to test them to your bow. I shoot my short bow at 55# and 26" and the chart is pretty close to what it likes in bare shafting. I normally end up with all my arrows carrying a 42# spine.
I'd be interested in how the Beech holds up as its a nice hardwood. I made my fleshing beam out of a rough sawn piece of it and love the look of the wood also. In my experience I have had a much better time with hardwoods than softwoods. Hardwood don't break easy and they don't seem to warp on my even without finish, but softwood always have for me.
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No, I want 30" arrows as it is easier when points stick out a little at full draw instead of them being in the same line as back of the bow. Beech dowels are a good arrow choice as beech was mentioned in old book Toxophilus as one of the choices for warbow arrows. Now if you can use it for such heavy bows, than you can surely use it for lower weight ones.
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Filip, the way that chart works , is say for a 28" actual draw, it has allowed for the arrows to be 29" to B.O.P.
so if you want a 30" arrow- calculate as for a 29" draw. so yes you did read it right. but my inclination , if i have an option, is to always err on the stiffer side- easier to keep the shafts a bit longer.
like my granny always said " its easier to cut a piece off, than to cut a piece on." :)
i do think beech will make a great arrow- hardwoods make excellent shafts, but like all shafting, every species has great points and compromises.
Rob is absolutely correct you need to addthe #5 for every extra inch and for the extra point weight, and subtract #5 if reducing either.
i do think Rob, that if you had softwood shafts warp on you, and i am talking out of turn here, but they might not have been a very high quality shaft with not so good grain integrity.
i have had some people tell me the same about birch shafts- then when i see the actual shafts, its quite obvious why they were having problems.
but i do agree, that the hardwoods make for a very tough, good quality shaft, and if of high quality will be extremely durable and be great thumpers! :OK
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We will see next month how that all looks like in practice. I will post here my progress.
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Wayne, have you seen any charts for actual arrow lengths, rather than "draw length"?
a lot of new guys scratch their head when they realize that there are multiple ways to measure draw length.
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that's a very good point Willie, i know i struggled with the whole measuring system for the longest time, as my argument was always taht with a heavier , thicker riser of say a recurve, vs a slim light riser of an elb- the same person using them would get two different measurements. it really frustrated me, due to its inaccuracy.
there is some std, however, where you measure to the deepest part of the grip and i believe add 3/4" .
now i dont do that, sadly i have to say, i just succumbed to mass peer pressure- after arguing my point so long, i just relented and measure to the back of the bow- i guess we have to pick our battles- maybe this is my "mellow" stage of my life :laugh: :laugh:
but back to your point, these charts, in my opinion, are the very best, ( i did not draw the originals) as it actually does give you an arrow length. say for a 28" draw, it actually allows for the arrow being 29", so for argument's sake, if you drew 26.5" but liked a 29" arrow- you would simply use the 28" draw ( which is also the 29" arrow) measurement.
so it seems to kill both birds with the same judo!
so if a beginner, not trying to ascertain their draw length, they could draw an arrow back, , figure out there preferred arrow length, and then work their spine out from there.
in fact, just thinking about it, you have inspired me to edit those charts, and actually add an arrow length column in, next to the draw length column.
thanks for the inspiration- that will simplify things greatly!
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If you have arrow longer than 28", I just add 5# to each inch over?
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As I read the chart details, add 5# for each inch beyond 29" arrow length or 28" draw length.
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yup, yer both correct, if you know your desired arrow length, the 27" draw would be for a 28" arrow- and you can simply add #5 per inch longer!
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This is also a related question. Since arrows must have nocks and points to be able to do the bareshafting, what about points? I have/will have everything except the points. From what can I easily make them? I want to use them for target shooting, not hunting (prohibited here).
P.S.
I modified the title of the thread to more suitable. After all this is an Q & A thread.
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TSA, I only make arrows from shoots and they have concentric rings. Most of the shafts I have used were Southern Arrowwood and Multiflora rose as my favorites as they were hardwood, took abuse and stayed straighted unsealed.
Softwoods I have tried and not likes
Hazel, I got in travel from a guy in Scotland. It shoots well but when the humidity is up it would bend on hard contact like the target and had to be hand straightened by eye after every shot
Roughleaf dogwood, Gathered locally and tended to slowly warp back to being bent.
Bush honeysuckle, very soft, break easy and warps.
I haven't been spending enough time in the primitive crafts lately as I have too many hobbies. I do have my eye on Russian Olive and it seems extremely promising.
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Rob, i too love beautiful shoot shafts, i guess we as a specie are around today because we shot shoot arrows out of self bows. :)
some really good info there, with regards to different shaft materials..
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Filip, i guess you could still taper the shoot shafts, just like you would do any other shaft, and glue on a field point.
thatsb if you are referring to shoot shafts, for manufactured shafts, you can easily taper the front of the shaft and glue on a target point
there are many more folk on here that could give you a better answer in that regard.
i know Top Hat( i think they are a german company) have points that will just thread onto a blank wooden shaft.
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I have one more question:
I want to use beeswax and pork fat as a finish. When do I apply that to shaft and does it make any conflict with gluing the feathers, I mean will the glue stick to such surface?
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i think the normal glues may fail to adhere to the fat content, PatB needs to be asked, he is a strong believer in the spray shellac, maybe you can just spray the shellac over the crown area of the shaft, then glue on fletching.
but with that kind of finish, sounds like those arrows would be an awesome fit for a eastern 2 fletch :)
look into that verdigris finish- old english. you could do that, on the crown, and then finish with the fat on the rest of the shaft-
you can do that verdigris finish without the green verdigris- and it will dry kind of clear- i believe- never used it but it looks amazing.
i guess you could glue your fletching on first then seal with the fat mix, but i dont think you would be able to replace a fletch at a later stage.
there may be some other natural sealants that may work as well, that are very primitive, like a natural varnish made from pitch and turpentine- i dont know the recipe- but i think i have read about Pat making some.
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http://www.theenglishwarbowsociety.com/TudorVerdegris2016.html
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I heard of verdigris before, but I will reserve that for warbow arrows (I am also into warbows). Maybe I could just coat the first two thirds of arrow and than after gluing fletchings use some cloth to apply finish between fletchings.
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If your arrows are of a hardwood and concentric ringed they might not need a finish. You can use the pork fat rendered and use heat to penetrate the wood pours. You could rough it where you need to glue. You can also lash your fletching. Here is pics of a fletching I did with single twisted dogbane fiber. I used this as it holds up to rain and getting wet during hunting where hide glue would defletch arrows glued down when rained or snowed on. The black was just hide glue with charcoal to look like pitch to set the knots from untying.
Another thing I have not had time to test is lightning grooves. I did not see them when I examined arrows at the Smithsonian, it its clearly documented about plains tribes using them. Many plains tribes used willow and dogwood which I've personally seen their ability to warp even in shoot shafts. Many of us have assumed that the compression of the wood like this might reduce its ability to warp. As I said, its an assumption and I have not tested it. I still have two Hazel field point arrows I should and see if they stop warping, but I have way too many hobbies and primitive archery isn't gaining traction at the moment. :D