Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: DC on January 25, 2018, 03:22:02 pm

Title: Deflex splices
Post by: DC on January 25, 2018, 03:22:02 pm
When you're doing a deflex splice what do you do about the little empty wedges? Cut and glue in wooden wedges? Fill with epoxy and sawdust? It's going to be covered by the handle/riser anyway, does it matter strength wise? Ideas?
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: Del the cat on January 25, 2018, 03:33:02 pm
Glue a big wedge onto each billet before you cut the splice!
The wedge will also make it easier to guide through the bandsaw too.
You won't any have gaps...
Del
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: upstatenybowyer on January 25, 2018, 03:44:19 pm
Del, any way you could clarify a bit what it means to glue a wedge onto each billet before you cut the splice? Do you mean just glue a piece of wood on top of each billet? I'd love to see how you cut splices on a bandsaw as well. I thought about making a splicing jig like in TBB1, but I can't understand the directions.

Thanks for posting this question DC, I've been wondering about all this for a while now!
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: NonBacked on January 25, 2018, 06:13:12 pm
DC, Good job cutting those splices – they’re TIGHT! Did you do them by hand or use a jig? Did you angle the billets when you cut them to match the deflex angle? (helps to eliminate gaps at the ends of the splices)

You can glue the “wedge” (or a flat piece) on the bottom pieces now, and re-saw. Just be as accurate re-sawing the splices as you were the first time. Another option is the use a filler material as you suggested. The surface area of the splice is plenty strong, so filling the gaps just makes it easier (and neater) to apply the handle covering.
H
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: DC on January 25, 2018, 06:55:57 pm
That was actually after about two hours of rasping and fitting. I did something when I cut it that made it very tight. When I first cut it, it would only go in about 3" on a 4" splice. I made a drawing of a splice to try and figure out what I did but it messes with my head when I try to imagine what goes on when you turn one around. ???
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: vinemaplebows on January 25, 2018, 07:33:45 pm
Ooops I looked at that pic again , and we are talking the belly not the back.

I personally will add glued on handles to both billets before they are cut to add extra strength to your splice area, twice the gluing depth. Not as pretty but damn strong, cover with a wrap.

VMB
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: DC on January 25, 2018, 07:36:19 pm
Why would it be stronger to glue the wedge on first? It's still the same length and number of joints.
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: Badger on January 25, 2018, 07:41:15 pm
  I usually have my splice area 1" thick before cutting the splice either naturally or built up to 1". Most billets are usually at least 1" thick or more to start with.
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: Marc St Louis on January 25, 2018, 08:16:41 pm
Not the kind of splice I use but I never glue in wedges to fill in the gap, I use a gap filling glue.  I start with at least 1/2" thick wood at the splice but never more than 3/4" thick, this is with a backed bow.  If it's a selfbow then I'll use 1" thick wood and hardly ever less than 3/4" thick at the splice
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: Del the cat on January 26, 2018, 04:31:14 am
Del, any way you could clarify a bit what it means to glue a wedge onto each billet before you cut the splice? Do you mean just glue a piece of wood on top of each billet? I'd love to see how you cut splices on a bandsaw as well. I thought about making a splicing jig like in TBB1, but I can't understand the directions.

Thanks for posting this question DC, I've been wondering about all this for a while now!
Glue a wedge onto the belly of each billet where the splice will be cut....
hang on... here's a post where I did it on a crossbow prod, very short splices but you'll see the idea.
You will still get the splice points sticking up on the back, these can be flattened out/blended, but the belly side will have no gaps. :)
https://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/mkii-prod-etc.html (https://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/mkii-prod-etc.html)
Del
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: upstatenybowyer on January 26, 2018, 06:04:11 am
Got it. Thanks Del!
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on January 26, 2018, 06:40:10 am
Give me a few hours and Ill put up a  bunch of pics showing how I just did exactly what you are trying to do now.
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: upstatenybowyer on January 26, 2018, 07:09:52 am
Give me a few hours and Ill put up a  bunch of pics showing how I just did exactly what you are trying to do now.

 (-P
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: Marc St Louis on January 26, 2018, 07:14:01 am
This is what I put in with gap filling glue

Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: sleek on January 26, 2018, 08:54:44 am
This is a reflexed handle with a scarf joint rather than the w splice, but you can still use this. I put sideplates and a bottom cap to hide the splice. Looks great. Another member here has this bow now.
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: DC on January 26, 2018, 09:49:28 am
This is what I put in with gap filling glue
Do you use a "W" splice Marc? How long do you make it?
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on January 26, 2018, 10:31:21 am
I asked Don for permission to add all these pics of a bow I am working now that has glued in splice deflex. I wont type much, its self explanatory.

 

Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on January 26, 2018, 10:33:44 am
This is how I fit the last piece and what the end product looks like. I didn't glue in near the deflex Marc did, which allows the curved pieces rather than "V" shaped.

 

Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: DC on January 26, 2018, 10:48:46 am
So, between the first and second pictures did you cut/rasp the handle area into a nice smooth curve?
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on January 26, 2018, 11:05:29 am
Exactly. I used a half round 49 & and then a sanding block. I glued two strips of hickory each time, I found that the clamp pressure required to squeeze all four lams in squeezed my glue out. So I did what you see in three glue sessions.
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: Marc St Louis on January 26, 2018, 11:09:37 am
I used to do it like Pearl does and it works OK as long as the deflex is mild.  I found that once you start to increase the deflex you can't clamp even a very thin strip down tight enough to avoid a gap right at the base of the splice
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on January 26, 2018, 11:16:24 am
My deflex was minimal, I got a 1" drop each way from center before the reflex came in.
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: PatM on January 26, 2018, 11:23:39 am
If your billets are an easily bent wood you can steam the ends into a deflex curve individually before cutting your splice.
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on January 26, 2018, 11:30:37 am
And thin enough. I wouldn't think about steam bending a 12" long section of 2" thick osage. Not a chance. 
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: vinemaplebows on January 26, 2018, 11:30:44 am
My deflex was minimal, I got a 1" drop each way from center before the reflex came in.

Pearlie why don't you just glue on blocks to both billets before the splice? You could use a bandsaw to get whatever depth you need with added assurance of the extra depth of the glued area, you could cover the splice as you did as well?
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on January 26, 2018, 11:39:55 am
I wanted a laminated handle with different woods in it. If I follow you, that is.
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: vinemaplebows on January 26, 2018, 11:47:22 am
I wanted a laminated handle with different woods in it. If I follow you, that is.

Gotcha. I like the handle.
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: upstatenybowyer on January 26, 2018, 11:55:08 am
Very nice work Pearly.

I've got a 3' long log of osage that's very straight and I'm planning on turning it into two 2" x 2" x 3' billets with the "back-to-be" sides cut just above a target growth ring. I was going to clamp them back to belly, splice (being careful to line up the target growth rings, glue up, and then chase the target growth ring before roughing out the bow. Does this make sense?
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on January 26, 2018, 12:06:49 pm
I do splices in slats that way, but I cut billets one at a time. My splice cuts aren't gorgeous, but they work for me.
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: Marc St Louis on January 26, 2018, 04:41:19 pm
The deflex in this bow was not spliced in, it was steam bent and not something I would do again

Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: Soggydog on January 26, 2018, 05:29:46 pm
Out of curiosity, what makes splicing favorable to steam bending?
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: sleek on January 26, 2018, 05:48:45 pm
Steam bending a piece that thick and wide at that sharp an angle requures emense amount of work and luck.
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: PatM on January 26, 2018, 06:02:31 pm
There's no reason to leave it thick.  You add a build up to a splice so you can just do the same with a thinned handle.   If you narrow and flatten the midsection of a stave before you do anything else you can create far more leverage to bend the middle.

 I think a lot of people practically floor tiller a stave and then try to bend the handle into reflex or deflex.
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: stuckinthemud on January 27, 2018, 04:10:38 am
If you were steaming the bend, could you thin the stave at the place you were bending and that way you would not damage the back of the bow?
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: Marc St Louis on January 27, 2018, 06:08:14 am
The one problem with steam bending handle deflex is the potential for introducing twist, just a little bit of twist at the handle can give you some real headaches.
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: PatM on January 27, 2018, 06:54:31 am
If you were steaming the bend, could you thin the stave at the place you were bending and that way you would not damage the back of the bow?

 That's what I said above. ;)

 Twist can be an issue but it's easy enough to tweak things with dry heat after the initial bend is made.
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: stuckinthemud on January 27, 2018, 04:20:01 pm
If you were steaming the bend, could you thin the stave at the place you were bending and that way you would not damage the back of the bow?

 That's what I said above. ;)


Oh bother, turns out my flash of inspiration was the last post I'd read. Sorry Pat I should read more slowly

 
In the same vein, would saw-kerfing work?
Title: Re: Deflex splices
Post by: vinemaplebows on January 27, 2018, 07:18:58 pm
If you were steaming the bend, could you thin the stave at the place you were bending and that way you would not damage the back of the bow?

 That's what I said above. ;)

 Twist can be an issue but it's easy enough to tweak things with dry heat after the initial bend is made.

I agree to a point, but there are some staves that even if straightened, will slowly over days begin their twist again. That is very frustrating.