Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: gfugal on August 28, 2017, 03:12:47 pm
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So I want a better tool for tillering between the stage after roughing out a bow's shape but before bracing it (the floor tillering and long string stage). I currently use a coarse rasp but it goes a little too slowly for my liking. I'm afraid to use the draw knife out of fear of messing up my bow. I've never used a scraper but to me it seems like it would remove wood at a slower rate than the coarse rasp. What options do I have other than enduring the pace of the rasp, or practicing my draw knife skills on my stave and risk ruining it? Is there such a thing or is it merely a pipe dream?
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A coarser rasp? ;D ;D
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Shinto saw rasp and a set of scrapers!
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I use a draw knife until it just starts bending--any more and I would also be afraid of taking off too much too fast. after that, I use a scraper almost exclusively--enjoy the slow process. I mess up very few bows overtillering
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Band saw to farriers rasp to Shinto to scraper. I never, ever, ever use a draw knife on the belly. Sure it takes me longer and its probably more arm work, but guess how many times I've ripped a belly out with my draw knife? Not to say it doesn't work, I've seen it first hand, it works very good. But its just not my style.
Patience builds a better bow.
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After floor tiller I use only a scraper.
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3riversarchery.com/ubr10-dean-torges-bowmaking-rasp.html
That's the rasp I currently use (pictured below). Is there a rougher one out there that would work significantly better at this stage? I'm happy with how it works after the floor tiller stage, just would like something faster before.
Jeff what do you consider bending? Like the tips moving several inches (like 3-5) or just any movement at all (1 or fewer inches)?
Yeah, Pearl, it may be that I just need to hone my tool of patience. Haha
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For those who use scrapers what do you like about them, and how often do you need to sharpen them? Like I said before, I haven't gotten one yet because i'm happy with the rasp's pace after brace and don't feel like I need to move slower. And I'm also hesitent because I imagine they need to be re-sharpenend all the time and I'm not sure if I want to Hassel with that. But maybe it's worth it or easier than I think.
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Have you tried a farriers rasp? I can't tell by looking at your picture but a farriers rasp is coarser than any other rasp I've seen. About half my bows are Ocean Spray(read hard, hard, hard) and the farriers rasp just eats it up.
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I made a copy(sort of) of Torges Bowyers Edge. It's easy to sharpen and cuts halfway between a spoke shave and a cabinet scraper. It's what I use after the farriers rasp.
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Sorry. There's is no such thing as going to slow.
Hatchet to draw knife to bench belt sander to surform.
After stringing I use a push knife as a scraper. I've also use my draw knife as a scraper.
That's it.
Jawge
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Band saw to farriers rasp to Shinto to scraper. I never, ever, ever use a draw knife on the belly. Sure it takes me longer and its probably more arm work, but guess how many times I've ripped a belly out with my draw knife?
Patience builds a better bow.
I do the same tool process as Pearly. I make my own scrapers out of large band saw blades. I round all the corners and roll a burr on both edges all the way around the scraper. If you have good steel and know how to properly roll a burr they last for a long time. My scraper is over a year old and it still cuts like new.
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When I go to the long string it is scrapers followed by sandpaper on an orbital sander. It is too easy to goof up a bow by using something that cuts faster. I have been making them for 20 years and remember the ones I ruined by getting too agressive on the tillering. In my early days the top limb would become my bottom limb and vice versa all too often because I tried to go too fast.
I had a friend now dead, who told me he had tried to make about 50 bows and broken every one without making a shooter. He came over to show me how he made bows, I turned my back on him after giving him a fine osage stave and heard him cursing. He ruined the stave in less than 5 minutes by trying to thin his fade on a belt sander and going almost through to the back.
His initial take was he wanted to have a shooter in one day and went at it like a house on fire.
I showed him what to use and when to use it, no belt sanders. He made dozens of bows after he slowed down and almost all were shooters.
Unless you are very experienced lay off the agressive cutting tools. I would rather spend a few days tillering bow than end up with a bunch of kiddie bows made from what I goofed up.
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Are you using the rasp to reduce the whole width and keep it flat? You need to use at least a modified facet approach to reduce things a bit faster.
Also make sure you can actually place both hands on each end of the rasp and bear down a little. Many people don't have the wrist strength to rasp with one hand effectively.
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I do use my draw knife on the belly. Not always but some. When I do I turn it 180 degrees from normal, meaning bevel down for me. Then I turn the blade edge close to 90 degrees or even more, from the belly face. It works more like a scraper, shaving off little ribbons of wood on the high spots. I find this ideal for Osage but much less useful on white woods. It gouges to deeply, and far to much chattering, so a scraper on those.
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6×48 belt sander all the way.
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by bending I mean just a couple of inches. I have used rasps, but mostly just the scraper, which I sharpen with a file
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After I get it floor tillered, the Farrier's rasp is out. I actually don't use them much anymore, but I still use rasps here and there like the Nicholson #50 or #49, the Bowyer's Edge, cabinet scrapers, double cut files of various sizes and shapes to remove early washboarding and tool marks. I use what's needed to address the task at hand... sometimes switching tools a few times a minute.
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My drawknives may just be my favorite hand tools, but I never use them on a bow's belly or sides.
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I often use a full size draw knife on the belly when roughing out. But let's just say I've had a lot of practice.
The key is to vary the angle of attack. A shallow angle will yield nice thin shavings and vice versa.
Jawge
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Ive seen some experts work a belly with a knife. Its a very impressive hand tool to master.
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If you are in a hurry, you can use a Stanley Surform plane. If the grain is straight enough, you can even use a small block plane. After that nothing beats goose neck carbide scrapers.
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Are you using the rasp to reduce the whole width and keep it flat? You need to use at least a modified facet approach to reduce things a bit faster.
I love my UB10. it is a bit finer than others, but Pats advice about faceting is the way Dean illustrates in his book. and probably what he had in mind when he speced the rasp. His book is well worth reading,IMHO.
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Depends on the wood...
Spokeshave is good on Yew and whitewoods. but prob' not so good on Osage.
Mind, I don't really floor tiller much, I get 'em up on the tiller early.
Del
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what is a modified facet approach (or faceting)?
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As I understand it, faceting is taking wood off the belly at an angle from each side of the limb belly, as opposed to taking wood directly from the entire flat plane of the belly. It leaves a crown in the center which is the next "facet line" to remove wood from. It's something I have always done without knowing there was a term used to describe it. You can remove wood quicker or at least with less muscle involved.
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6×48 belt sander all the way.
Jon is the Jedi Master of the belt sander. :OK
I like to use a farrier rasp for evening up after the band saw, then a #49 rasp and scraper and at the last I tend to go with scraper and a sanding block with 60 grit to start. Slow, but then I'm not built for speed anyway. ;)
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I'm with Jon on the belt sander!
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http://www.bowyersedge.com/faceting.html
a technique of light rasping with the finer side of the ub10, then switching to a cabinet scraper, makes for a nice controlled but granular reduction.
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Angle cut or facet the belly on the bandsaw/Farrier rasp it flat but still overly thick/To the spindle sander to get it really close /A 6" chunk of 2"by4" with 60 grit to flatten every ripple away/To floor tiller/To long string /To short string.A cabinet scraper is used when ever needed too.Before any big bending I round the corners too.
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I use my draw knife to rough it out and get it bending. Once that is done I switch to a Nicholson 49 rasp. I clean everything up real good and slight round over the belly, just slightly. Then I switch to a scraper and do all the remaining tillering with a scraper, I keep the rasp handy if I get some chatter going.
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Chain saw to splitting wedges to band saw to farriers rasp to 49/50 rasp to scraper then maybe a little sand paper, this is what I mainly use from tree to Bow. Sometimes a draw knife but not normally any more since I have a band saw. ;)
Pappy
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Drawknife for roughing out. Then Farriers rasp to get the basic shape and floor tiller. Then scrapers to final tiller. No power tools and I like it that way, keeps me fit :BB
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Thanks for all the responses guys! It's always good to here how other people do things. So I went and bought a cabinate scraper from a local woodworking store. It said it was mad in Germany so I thought it's probably good steel. However, when I tried to use it, it was as dull as heck. It didn't produce any shavings just really fine dust. But only if I put muscle into it. I don't have a burnishing tool, file, or a wet stone. I tried sharpening it with some sand paper then used a screwdriver as a burnishing rod. Well... Needless to say it still isn't sharp. Maybe it's me and some of you could do it with sand paper and a screwdriver. Any tips on what must happen to sharpen one?
As far as what I'm going to use in the floor tiller stage, I think I'm going to try to get better at the draw knife then also utilize that technique mentioned with the rasp. If you keep your strokes very tiny in a bouncing motion with the draw knife I found you can use it almost in a scrapping like manner. If you turn it upside-down it even increases the control and takes even less wood.
I appreciated all the replies. Thanks again.
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This is where I learned to sharpen a scraper. I follow it step by step and get great results. The pictures are gone thanks to stupid photobucket.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,1237.0.html
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Thanks for all the responses guys! It's always good to here how other people do things. So I went and bought a cabinate scraper from a local woodworking store. It said it was mad in Germany so I thought it's probably good steel. However, when I tried to use it, it was as dull as heck. It didn't produce any shavings just really fine dust. But only if I put muscle into it. I don't have a burnishing tool, file, or a wet stone. I tried sharpening it with some sand paper then used a screwdriver as a burnishing rod. Well... Needless to say it still isn't sharp. Maybe it's me and some of you could do it with sand paper and a screwdriver. Any tips on what must happen to sharpen one?
As far as what I'm going to use in the floor tiller stage, I think I'm going to try to get better at the draw knife then also utilize that technique mentioned with the rasp. If you keep your strokes very tiny in a bouncing motion with the draw knife I found you can use it almost in a scrapping like manner. If you turn it upside-down it even increases the control and takes even less wood.
I appreciated all the replies. Thanks again.
I found a nifty tool called a "Scraper Burnisher" on a guitar-making Web site. Boy, it works like a charm sharpening my scrapers. It allows you to burnish and put a "hook" on your scrapers all in one tool. So far, so good.
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I have found cabinet scrapers in varying hardness. you should be able to dress or square up a scraper with a file.
try a bevel angle with the file before burnishing. not all screwdrivers work well. I use a honing steel found in the cutlery section of a thrift store. Do you have a way to clamp or hold it in a vice so you can lean on the steel fairly hard?
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Willie I have a honing steel, But I thought the ridges would interfere with creating the burr. Have you had issues with it? If not I suppose I could use that then.
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A file is not expensive and works fine with no additional burnishing necessary. The act of just running the file across the scraper or vice versa will flare the edges out in a burr.
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Greg, the one I use doesn't have much for grooves, but I have seen some with much more aggressive grooving. I suppose that you could see how raggy the burr is by dragging it across your fingernail. I gotta think that if Pat gets by with a file for making a burr, then a raggy edge still works, I guess it becomes a matter of what one prefers. I have a tri cornered file I use for a burnisher also, but ground off all the teeth with a fine grit flap disk on an angle grinder. If you got a file that still has some life in it, you might skate-test a few different screwdriver shanks. Some are only hardened at the tip
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Rolling a hook takes some pressure and perseverance. I may make 20 passes with a screwdriver shank before I get the hook I want, it won't start to roll at first but will if you keep after it. I put my scraper in my vise so I can put both hands on my screwdriver.
I use a craftsman screwdriver, they have a hard shank.
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Band saw to farriers rasp to Shinto to scraper. I never, ever, ever use a draw knife on the belly. Sure it takes me longer and its probably more arm work, but guess how many times I've ripped a belly out with my draw knife? Not to say it doesn't work, I've seen it first hand, it works very good. But its just not my style.
Patience builds a better bow.
Pearl drums, are you using your draw knife upside down? I ask because there is a better chance (at least for me) if you right side up I get way more tear out.
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I've stopped using a draw knife as I get tear out whichever way up I use it, but, my Shinto rasp is indispensable. For me, its saw, then splitting wedges, then hatchet, then planes, rasp then scraper. Light sand (400 grit) to finish.
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Scrapers, I can use them and I can sharpen them properly but I find a sharp blade (knife, chisel, whatever) held vertically works really well as a scraper and is much easier to keep sharp.
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I have had a lot of luck using a microplane 8" snap in plane. I use the coarse and fine flats for my rough in and also use a cabinet scraper to smooth out the surface and the final tillering. The round planes are also great for shaping handles. The full set is a bit spendy at around $50 + shipping, but I've been using mine for about 6 years now and it hasn't gone dull yet.
https://www.amazon.com/MICROPLANE-SNAP-BLADE-RASP-SET/dp/B000H6BPKG
Ken
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Mostly like Pappy . But all the above just about are in my arsenal. Depends on my mood. Arvin