Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: willie on February 24, 2017, 02:23:59 pm

Title: What was in the belly?
Post by: willie on February 24, 2017, 02:23:59 pm
In a nearby thread about compression wood, there is a side discussion about bone antler etc. I came across this illustration of a bow found in Texas and described as prehistoric. Jim Hamm writes a bit about it in TBB3,  p. 115. He does not speculate about the purpose of the belly grove much, but one cannot help having some ideas about it's purpose.

Ideas are welcome in this thread, even wild speculative ideas.
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: Pat B on February 24, 2017, 02:31:16 pm
If it was from a small diameter stick the concave might be where the pith was or maybe it's just how the builder made it. We've had a few bows here on PA with concave bellies. I'm just guessing but maybe it helps with the compression stresses.
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: Aaron H on February 24, 2017, 02:52:37 pm
I would think that it would concentrate the compression stresses into those ridges and cause fretting.
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: DC on February 24, 2017, 02:53:22 pm
You wanted wild a speculative ;D. How about this is another"archaeologists got it wrong" and this is a radical RD where the back is actually the belly and the groove is for sinew. Huh, huh wild enough??   
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: willie on February 24, 2017, 03:08:46 pm
For those that have not bought the TBB series yet  ;)
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: loefflerchuck on February 24, 2017, 04:17:06 pm
 Maybe this was for a antler or some other material inlay. There is one old northern plains bow with antler inlay in the belly about this size. The antler only makes up 1/3 the width of the belly set in a groove like this
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: PatM on February 24, 2017, 04:28:10 pm
It's for a decorative strip of air.  Seriously,  people like to impart  futuristic engineering knowledge on old things to make people back in the day seem smarter and bows are no exception.
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: DC on February 24, 2017, 05:19:26 pm
Or the old standard answer, "it was for ceremonial purposes"
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: willie on February 24, 2017, 05:25:18 pm
It's for a decorative strip of air.  Seriously,  people like to impart  futuristic engineering knowledge on old things to make people back in the day seem smarter and bows are no exception.

Weren't  people back in the day just as smart as we are now?..... and bit more experienced?
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: PatM on February 24, 2017, 05:57:53 pm
It's for a decorative strip of air.  Seriously,  people like to impart  futuristic engineering knowledge on old things to make people back in the day seem smarter and bows are no exception.

Weren't  people back in the day just as smart as we are now?..... and bit more experienced?

 Yes and no. We have the same brains but we "stand on the shoulders of giants". Our learning is built upon the foundation of previous knowledge.

  There was a period back in the day when people were just as smart and hadn't even invented the bow yet.

 Plus each bow is built by an individual who could have any sort of ability to learn and execute that knowledge. Just like on here.
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: bradsmith2010 on February 24, 2017, 06:14:15 pm
it could have been a decorative inlay of some sort,,or as stated maybe the pith was there and the bow maker took it out to make it look nicer,, just speculating,,
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: upstatenybowyer on February 24, 2017, 08:06:12 pm
I remember this section of TBB. Hamm does say he's almost certain it's not from a pith. If it's not, only one of 2 possible explanations makes sense to me... either something was once in there that now is not, or someone was just experimenting with the design and probably found out it wasn't so great (or else we'd have many more examples). Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: BowEd on February 24, 2017, 08:42:51 pm
Actually I think like Aaron said the compressive forces were centered there on the antler but the edges I think would be ok and would not get harmed any provided it was glued in properly.Maybe to counter it a ridge of sinew was on the back to balance forces.
Horn is crowned all the time on asiatic or turkish hornbows to be more efficient but it covers most all of the limb though but still does'nt have to to get the horns compressive benefits on the belly.I really think it was an idea for a bow using materials that were available to him,but like what upstate said maybe it failed but...lol.if it did why is'nt it broke.
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: upstatenybowyer on February 24, 2017, 09:20:04 pm
"if it did why is'nt it broke." -Ed

^Good point  ;)
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: BowEd on February 24, 2017, 09:45:08 pm
Not being critical upstate just an observation is all.
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: BowEd on February 24, 2017, 09:51:47 pm
Maybe if the horn or antler was carved in a way along with the insert in there it had sort of extended wings that covered up those wood edges on top of the wood belly covering the belly just a little more.Looks like something to carve on fitting siting at the camp fire but then again those edges might be suseptible to the compressive forces too and crack or something......lol
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: gfugal on February 24, 2017, 11:51:54 pm
Maybe it was wood. After all it is a bow. Plus if it is prehistoric it had all the time to rot away

*oops i was under the impression the bow was made of antler or bone. After further reading i guess its not. I suspect it was a laminent of some kind and the belly material was lost
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: willie on February 25, 2017, 02:20:24 am
Maybe this was for a antler or some other material inlay. There is one old northern plains bow with antler inlay in the belly about this size. The antler only makes up 1/3 the width of the belly set in a groove like this

good to hear about a possible similar bow. Thanks Chuck

Greg, if you consider wood, then the belly laminate might well have been some dense desert tree or bush,  perhaps something that may not grow big enough for a full size bow, but big enough to piece together some sort of belly insert, I dunno, I am not familiar with the desert species. but I have heard about ironwood and other dense shrubs
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: Springbuck on March 01, 2017, 07:37:58 pm
You wanted wild a speculative ;D. How about this is another"archaeologists got it wrong" and this is a radical RD where the back is actually the belly and the groove is for sinew. Huh, huh wild enough??
 
I like this one best.  A real ROPE of sinew could be laid in that groove, then tied down with wrappings.  The asymmetrical limbs are from leaning against a cave wall for centuries.  It wouldn't be all that far off from several Arctic bows on the Smithsonian NAEC list, other than they have flatter limbs and use bridges to center the cable.
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: upstatenybowyer on March 01, 2017, 08:11:30 pm
Bead, I like that idea of yours with the wings of horn coming out from the middle.

SB, They have one of those arctic bows in our local science museum in Rochester. Circa 1900s. Talk about wide and fat limbs! I like DC's idea too. Not that wildly speculative actually.
Title: Re: What was in the belly?
Post by: DuBois on March 01, 2017, 09:00:54 pm
I am inclined to lean toward SB's idea somewhat, but with a little different angle. Groove side is not belly, it' the back.

I think it is a groove for a cable backing and that is why there are 2 sets of knock grooves and the notch in the top as well. bow string in the outer set and cable backing over the top and bottom notches to wrap the opposite direction as the bow string in the outer set of nocks. I have been thinking on something like this for a while.

I think it would have to have the cable applied first and then strung up for shooting.