Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: BSV on December 22, 2016, 06:40:47 pm
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This is a simple question but one I can't find a clear answer to.Does violate mean a nick or a cut through the ring,Does sanding violate a ring? Thank-you Burt
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Technically, going through a ring is going through a ring. With some woods it doesn't matter as much as others-osage, locust for example. If its only a nick, or you've sanded a little too heavy and its a concern, adding a layer of clothe or leather would compensate in most cases.
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Think of them as degrees of the same thing.
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A non violated ring is one continues ring on the back of the stave any thing that changes that is considered a violation , could be a nick if it goes completly threw the ring ,a cut that goes threw the ring is defiantly a violation , sanding usually does not violate a ring providing thers enough thickness in the ring , a minor nick could be considered a violation of sorts but it can depend on where it's at a minor nick on the outer limbs might not be concerning but if it was is a working section in the limb it might be , knots can be dangerous areas for violations , chasing a ring was pretty scary to me the first time I did it but it's actually easer & more enjoyable then most books would make you think in my case I'm speaking to osage & BL hope that helped.
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Thank-you that was what I needed to reassure myself that my thoughts were correct, Degrees of the same thing.....I really like this place....Burt
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"Does violate mean a nick or a cut through the ring." Yes, through the ring for me.
"Does sanding violate a ring?" No, not unless it goes through.
At least that's the way I've always looked at it.
Jawge
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"degree of the same thing" I like that. ;) :) I try not to nick or even disturb the ring I want for the back, most of the time a little nick on a light sanding don't matter as long as you don't go through to the next ring, it just thins the ring you want for the back, but strive for perfection , hard to achieve most times but always try. :)
Pappy
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I split this topic so that the discussion on violating backs that Jack seems to think is a good idea can continue, for now, without hijacking BSV's post. Keep this topic on track please or else
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Grain and growth rings are the same beast at different angles?
Hawkdancer
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My reply got stuck in the garbage on the other "thread".
To answer your question, Burt. I consider a violated ring a ring that is damaged through to the next ring. I prefer that doesn't happen though. A properly designed bow with a clear, clean back will outlast any violated back bow 10 to 1. I've broke enough bows to know why bows break, poor back condition is the culprit most often.
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Thank-you guy's I just noticed the topic had been split,Burt
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I experimented with violating the rings on a very low quality thin ringed osage stave at the Classic last year. The bow was never meant to be made into a shooter. It was 90% early growth and felt like a wet noodle when bending it. Some of the discussion on this post was guys that thought they could have turned it into a decent bow. It broke at 32" I believe and it wasn't due to a ring violation. There is a video on one of the later pages that show it breaking.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,56848.0.html
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Hey Clint if you had of violated the ring you could have made 34 in. 🤔
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I guess I am not sure what is being said Can some one post a picture of a " clear" ring and a "violated" ring? I don't have a lot of expertise flexing wood, other than what I have read. When I do start to make a bow, I will try to find a good hickory blank. And a mentor here in northern Colorado -raise your hands:) :). I will bring the beer.
Hawkdancer
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Check out the Ferrets build a long. It has some good pictures of chasing a clean ring.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,38381.0.html
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Here is a pic of a osage stave being chased the foward part of the stave is a clear unviolated chased ring , in the back you can clearly see how the late wood early wood stacks up & it would look the same under the foward ring so any thing that penetrates that ring to another layer would be a violation. Hickory normaly doesent need a chased ring you just use the ring under the bark as your back like most white woods.
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Outlaw, Stick Bender,
Thanks fir the info. I bookmarked that build along to use when I get the urge too make sawdust. After I find my round tuit, and a good piece of hickory, which is sort of hard to come by in the high country If I screw it up, at least the grilled steak will taste good :) Of course, every first bow comes out perfect with beginners luck:) Lol!
Hawkdancer
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I think Bubba has a how to with a pyramid white wood bow over in the how to section also , hard to go wrong with hickory on your first bow.
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nice photo Stick Bender,, that shows the rings very clearly,,
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Nice photo of the process, stickbender. Jawge
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This brings up a question I've always wondered......How do you chase a ring? in the above picture, are you pulling the draw knife towards you? or are you turning the stave around and pulling the knife towards you? I'm always working the knife away from the finished ring, not towards it.
Dbar
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I have better luck pulling into the fresh ring. So essentially how the picture is. If I rotate and pull into they upper rings I end up with tear outs more frequently. I'll work in sections about 6-12" long. And work my way down the stave. Depending on how deep I go it takes from 15-45 minutes. I hog away to the ring above the one I want, then slow down for the cleanup and make a lot of use of a scraper. On the last ring I will remove the late growth with the draw knife, so it just reveals the crunvly early growth. Then I take the scraper to the crumbly wood to clean it up. Doing like that I rarely damage the back ring anymore, unless I get distracted while chasing the ring. Which seems to happen pretty easy.
Kyle
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This brings up a question I've always wondered......How do you chase a ring? in the above picture, are you pulling the draw knife towards you? or are you turning the stave around and pulling the knife towards you? I'm always working the knife away from the finished ring, not towards it.
Dbar
I chase my rings the same way as the Dancing Bear
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Yep there is more than one way to skin a cat... :)
I have found especially on osage, if it's a clean stave and decent ring thickness, that the tear outs never go below the early growth ring below the one I'm chasing....I can chase a ring and leave the early ring on to be removed with a scraper....
I guess it is whatever you get use to...I find doing it your way I tend to dig deep into the late or summer ring .............thanks for you reply, wonder what others do.
DBar
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I push away from me with my Swedish push knife. I get close and then scrape away either with the same push knife or my cooper's tools. Jawge
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I do it the same as you Danzn Bar, it doesn't really tear out since I stop as soon as I get to the early wood. Then I just clean off the early wood layer with a scraper.
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I usually pull into the fresh ring also on most staves but had a 15 year old sapling stave this year that had like iron rings with epoxy for early wood had to change direction many times I guess it depends on the stave.
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I start in the middle and work out, then flip and work from center out again. Pappy
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For you guys that are asking about ring violation here is another pic of the one Im chasing this morning with the rings more spread out if you look at that area where the pin knots are you can see the grain is swerling around those knots those can be dangerious areas for tear out and I only use scrapers in those to avoid violations, Merry Xmas to every body !
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I do my best to locate the highest ring and start from that point taking off one ring at a time. Chasing rings has to be one of the most relaxing things I do now days.
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Hurts my old wore out hands but I keep enjoying the pain.
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I do my best to locate the highest ring and start from that point taking off one ring at a time. Chasing rings has to be one of the most relaxing things I do now days.
When the moon is in the right phase, the wood is properly seasoned, and I hold my tongue just right, I find myself relaxing into the job, too. Same for shaping handles. Those were the two things I feared/loathed/hated when I first started.
Good lesson for life. Lean into those things and you'll flatten the hills and straighten the curves.
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JW, you me me smile.
Anyway, here is ow I do chase.
http://traditionalarchery101.com/osage.html
Jawge
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George I bought one of those Swedish push knifes after seeing it on your site it came in real handy on staves that I had to go in deep to get to the ring by back peeling the rings above it I appreciate your post on that.
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Welcome, Stick Bender. Good to hear. I use the push knfe as a scraper too. Jawge