Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: arachnid on September 23, 2016, 05:26:36 am
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Hi Guys.
Long story short- 2 mulberry billets, tried to splice them but someting in the cut went wrong (billets not aligned and twisted, the splice cut is not snug...).
Question is- is it repairable or should I just use`m for 3pc take-down limbs (Pearl Drums made a great looking TD with osage limbs a while ago).
Here are the pics:
(https://scontent.fhfa2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14462987_1102042199885503_2869023938870278409_n.jpg?oh=f204b718780e69033effccfde7b70950&oe=58790F3D)
(https://scontent.fhfa2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14364868_1102042163218840_5031055102289691810_n.jpg?oh=2aa5b04b0b4bf4347128c90eb3c373f7&oe=587322B2)
(https://scontent.fhfa2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14441127_1102042166552173_8346458715295309522_n.jpg?oh=eade24312a26c82c7379d0bf84a8ae73&oe=5838021B)
(https://scontent.fhfa2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14433180_1102042123218844_3569966019769123591_n.jpg?oh=3cdfb79c25eb0c1d890008221fdb3646&oe=5838AEF1)
(https://scontent.fhfa2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14358719_1102042133218843_1286339792783705176_n.jpg?oh=240bdd0fb96e99b407fffdeb8f1a10cf&oe=58727B5F)
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Another idea I just had is to flatten the belly side of the handle section on each billet, glue a handle block and saw`em slant and flat so they fit. Then make a fiberglass sleeve and have a 2pc takedown. Doable?
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You shouldn't have any cuts going across the limb at all. Even if you are going to reduce the width later.
Mark out the line of the finished bow, draw on the splice, extending all lines right out to the full width.
There is a pic on this blog entry that might help.
http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/tidy-up-and-splicing-yew-billets.html (http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/tidy-up-and-splicing-yew-billets.html)
Do it on some scrap wood first to get the hang of it, and if a Z splice is too fiddly, then do a loooooong V splice.
Saw 'em both off and start again.
There should be one straight cut on both Zs which runs down the centreline.
No substitute for taking the time to get it right... no quick fixes with spicing IMO.
Del
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Looks like you put it together wrong too. You can remove those "shoiulders" and work on everything gradually to attain a better fit.
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You shouldn't have any cuts going across the limb at all. Even if you are going to reduce the width later.
Mark out the line of the finished bow, draw on the splice, extending all lines right out to the full width.
There is a pic on this blog entry that might help.
http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/tidy-up-and-splicing-yew-billets.html (http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/tidy-up-and-splicing-yew-billets.html)
Do it on some scrap wood first to get the hang of it, and if a Z splice is too fiddly, then do a loooooong V splice.
Saw 'em both off and start again.
There should be one straight cut on bot Zs which runs down the centreline.
No substitute for taking the time to get it right... no quick fixes with spicing IMO.
Del
Thanks Del. Next time I`m making a V splice... much simpler...
Problem is, the billets are too short to cut and start over. If I cut`em, it`ll leave me with 30" long billets. If I do a 4" splice' it`ll give me a 56" bow, a bit shot for a stiff handle for my 26" draw, no?
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That is a bit of a mess indeed. I would sort of do like Pat suggested but only in the sense of modifying what you have done to get a better fit. If you want to save this then you will have to go slow and think before doing anything more. You can save it and only lose perhaps a couple inches of length at most, be creative
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It is actually put together wrong though, no?
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I don't think you can rescue that splice job.
On your next attempt, draw a centerline on your billets, draw your splices very neatly on a piece of paper, both sides apposing on one piece of paper, cut out your patterns and glue them to your billets lining them up with the center lines. I use white elmer's school glue to glue on the patterns.
In this case I am adding a new limb to a finished bow after a limb failure.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/limbreplacement3.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/limbreplacement3.jpg.html)
This is before I started the splice, you can see my pattern in the background.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/limbreplacement1.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/limbreplacement1.jpg.html)
Pretty good fit;
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/limbreplacement5.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/limbreplacement5.jpg.html)
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I've messed up where I put the pattern on with both billets side by side facing the same way, then when I put them end-to-end found I'd cut one out back-to-front so now I always line them up butt-to-butt so the pattern goes on correct way round with no thinking about which way is up. What Eric says, but after cutting the first side, check it still fits the other side's pattern BEFORE you cut out the other side.
My vote would go to a take-down bow.
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At least try fitting it together properly and then see what you can do with the fit.
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what Pat said,,i think you have it orientated on the wrong notch
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Tried to fit them the other way. The alignment is way off.
So, a 2pc or 3pc takedown?
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Show us a pic. Trust me., get rid of the shoulders so the ends aren't stopped from moving. There is only one right way for them to fit together, not two choices
Work on it a bit. You have a huge amount of alignment capability after you clamp them. You can also boil the ends and soften them and then temporarily clamp and align and they will dry and retain that shape and fit.
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It is actually put together wrong though, no?
Yes, it does appear you have the joint put together in the wrong slots. Try moving it over.
Eric's layout method will help you a lot on the next one. Cutting good splices requires some precision, so I always flatten the belly of both splice areas. I put them on my workbench and make sure the limbs line up properly with no propeller twist in them. I then square one side on each limb with the belly cut. Now, using these two trued surfaces, you can cut the ends square. With these three cuts you can now layout your splice cut accurately using the center line of the limbs and have a true surface on the belly to band saw your splice. Even if you are hand sawing the slice, this layout will give you accurate lines to cut to. I also use a knife, not a pencil to layout my splice.......much more accurate. These techniques were learned from building furniture and having to cut very precise joinery. Good luck and take your time.
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Well. I put them together the other way. The splice seems to fit better, but the alignment is WAY worse.
(https://scontent.fhfa2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14445984_1102222139867509_7091101948532331518_n.jpg?oh=010586d2496c544a81c1038a03b1c601&oe=5839A18E)
(https://scontent.fhfa2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14440730_1102222853200771_6806179361137256700_n.jpg?oh=6bed9a6297c08ca526fb958155fa737a&oe=58726425)
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if you true the joint nice and snug then boil it could you straighten the stave at the same time?
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It will easily come into alignment. The splice is super flexible and you can manipulate it the same way to can do a limb glue-up. Even if your splice was perfect it could still appear way out end to end.
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Pat, I think if you elaborate on how to true the alignment in the glueing process,, it will work for him,,
how would you recommend proceeding,, :)
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Like Pat said, that isn't too bad. Put your glue on the splice, put one C clamp in the middle of the splice and move the limbs into alignment. Use a string to make sure everything lines up, clamp your now aligned limbs to something so they can't move and put two more C clamps on the splice, one on each end and you should be good to go.
I always do my final alignment on spliced billets this way. Every now and then I get one that butts together in perfect alignment but not often.
This isn't a very good picture. I have a post on the end of my workbench to support work when I am rasping. I use the side of the post for splice alignment and heat straightening staves. I can swivel my vise jaws to put more pressure on one side of the limb or the other as well as add shims to force the limb one way or the other sideways.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/limbreplacement7.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/limbreplacement7.jpg.html)
You can see my post in this picture;
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/RDstart-1.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/RDstart-1.jpg.html)
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Follow the advice above. Any temporary clamp and trial straightening will show you how much you can actually move things over before you commit to gluing it. I prefer inner tube to c-clamps because I feel I can control things a bit better and run into less chance of the clamps skating on me.
You do need to realize that failure at one method does not mean the other options are any easier. Not sure if anyone will say that fitting a take-down sleeve or aligning a bolted take-down is going to be any easier than a spliced handle.
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Never said a take down is easier... I just want to find a use for the billets.
So if I get it currently, I don't need to boil the tips, just have a snug fit and force it into alignment?
Wouldn't it just spring back when I unclamp it?
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not if its glued,, :)
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Just my 2 cents, I'd boil it first, then clamp in alignment while hot, let it cool and dry, the glue. (Boiling has the backing of TBB Vol. I ;)
Jim Davis
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Just my 2 cents, I'd boil it first, then clamp in alignment while hot, let it cool and dry, the glue. (Boiling has the backing of TBB Vol. I ;)
Jim Davis
I don`t have such a good experience with boiling.... would steaming work as well?
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There is no way I would glue those now.....
You need to get a good enough fit to not seeing light through them. Then boil them, then fit and clamp. Check fit again, you should see no light through the joint (without clamping).
Only then should you glue them up.
Forget 3 piece takedowns for now. The splice is easier.
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The billets needs to be aligned sideways and twisted a bit. If I get it currectly, I work in the splice to get a snug fit (no light showing through). Then boil, align and twist, allow to dry, check the fit again and if the fit and alignment are good- glue it up.
True?
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Boil and clamp first. That way, there is a lot less wood removal needed for a good fit.
Boiling is easy for that short section. You only need to have the ends in the water. Lean the limbs against something to keep them standing up and make an aluminum foil tent over the top of the pan, surrounding the limbs.
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Way i see it you have 3 options.
1: make those two billets fit the way they are, then lay under then an underlay for the handle and an overlay to make a bulbous shape to fit the hand more comfy, and add lots more strength to the splice and hide any ugly it may have. It doesn't need much on top either, maybe 1/8 thickat the least.
2: Make a new limb for each of them that fits the splice you already made for them. Then you have two bows. Win win :) cake and eating it too!
3: Make a third piece for a center that each limb splices into. An adapter if you will. It will also give your bow more length and meat to shape the handle how you like, without fear of cutting into the splices.
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Boil and clamp first. That way, there is a lot less wood removal needed for a good fit.
Boiling is easy for that short section. You only need to have the ends in the water. Lean the limbs against something to keep them standing up and make an aluminum foil tent over the top of the pan, surrounding the limbs.
I disagree here. If the fit was better then maybe yes boil now but the fit leaves quite a bit to be desired....Get he fit much better first then boil. Remember heat weakens wood and I personally would only boil once. In my opinion boiling is best saved till you have a good fit then the boiling will make the fit perfect.
Also if you boil now and then shape you have no option other than to get the fit perfect by hand because if you tried to boil again at the end when the wood heats up it will go back to its original preboiled shape - thus ruining your shaping work and putting you back to square one.
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Get a piece of 1x2 scrap and make a half dozen or so splices. Practice, practice until you figure out how it all fits and how to cut it. Then go back and look at the bow again. You may be able to cut a new splice and have the new fingers match up(sorta) with the old ones. That may keep a bit of the length.