Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: DC on August 05, 2016, 09:26:43 pm
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How (or do) you guys get the arrow under your eye? I shoot instinctive and when I'm looking at the target the arrow is kinda coming in from the lower right of my field of vision. I can't seem to get the arrow positioned under my eye so I can kinda sight along it. Is it even part of instinctive shooting? I can see how it would make things easier on my old brain. It would just be able to line it up rather than trying to use advanced trig to figure out where the arrow is pointed.
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I shoot with both eyes open. I draw to the corner of my mouth, so the arrow is always under the target. Of course with both eyes on target you see two arrows, a left and a right. I am a right handed shooter so i make certain the left arrow lines up with the target, as in, directly under, to align left and right. Elevation is pure luck and guesswork. I usually get it right.
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Not that I'm that great of shoot but I do best when all I see is the spot I'm wanting to hit. I don't see bow or arrow just the spot. I know some guy's do aim arrow point at target and that's great but for me I haven't been able to make it work. Not sure why but for me both eyes open only see the spot work s best.
Bjrogg
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I've done a little try this and try that. I've always anchored with my traffic finger in the corner of my mouth. That seems to put my thumb against my jawbone and pushes my hand out a bit which makes the arrow seem to come in from the side. If I use my index finger in the corner of my mouth it drops my thumb under my jaw and the arrow moves in. I'll have to try that as soon as this $%^%^^ rain stops.
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Hehe.... you said traffic finger.
I find that method works best. Arrow points right at what I am hitting. ( obviously ) If you notice that the arrow is swinging wide of target it may not be you, it may be your arrow. They are supposed to flex around you know...
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Man DC I pay you for some of that rain right now. Know what it's like to want it to stop also. That will probably be during harvest season.
Bjrogg
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I shoot instinctively with both eyes open. When my middle finger touches the corner of my mouth I release. I don't see the arrow at all because I'm concentrating on where the arrow will go. Maybe with point of aim shooting placing the arrow under the eye is important because you use the arrow as a reference point. The most important thing is consistency...and lots of practice.
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Can of worms time. ;) ;) I hate to be accused of being a vocabulary Nazi but I've never liked that term "instinctive shooting". Nobody ever crawled out of the womb, picked up a bow and nailed the gold. I prefer the term "habitual". You start to learn to shoot habitually when you first learn to point at something. You perfect the pointing ability as you age. Everybody does this, even non-archers. Your brain and muscles learn to aim your hand at the spot you are looking at. Look at a 2 year old trying to point at Gramma, his arm flails all over. Gradually he gets it. This ability is handy for any kind of shooting. It just takes a little practice to modify your arm position to suit a bow and arrow. I firmly believe that when you shoot habitually you may not be conscious of the arrow but your brain is, it has to be, the arrow is right in front of your face. Muscle memory has a lot to do with it but I can't imagine that your brain would ignore the arrow for the last little corrections. Rant mode off.
I have been shooting "instinctively" also. Both eyes open. Traffic finger in the corner of my mouth. But I was always conscious of the arrow. I didn't pay much attention to it though. I got to thinking that if my brain didn't have to work so hard figuring angles and stuff (unconsciously) that I may be able to hit the gold. So I started looking at the arrow and noticed that it wasn't under my eye. I modified my anchor point, I now use my index finger in the corner of my mouth so that my thumb is under my jaw. Now the arrow is under my eye. Funny thing, as soon as I reach this position, my left eye slams shut. Go figure. Anyway with the new anchor my good groups are smaller but not as consistent. I'll try it this way for a bit. Usually when I try something new it works for a spell and then not so much. It's not a big change so it shouldn't take too long to get used to it.
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When you close one eye you loose your binocular vision. This includes depth perception which is necessary for estimating distance.
I would much rather my subconscious mind take over my shooting than my conscious mind. Too much going on surrounding me to give full attention to all aspects of shooting. I have had 2 instances back when shooting a compound bow that drew me to instinctive shooting. In one case I remember seeing the deer walk in, sniff the scrape I was sitting over, I remember standing, concentrating on the spot and beginning to draw the bow. My next memory was the bloody arrow sticking up in the ground. I don't remember my draw, anchor or shot. My subconscious mind took over, drew the bow, allowed a clean release and put the arrow where I was looking. Muscle memory is a big part on this scenario and you only achieve that with lots of purposeful shooting paying attention to form, draw and release.
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Yeah, I'm going to work on getting that left eye to stay open :D. I played with bows and arrows when I was a kid and always shot "instinctively". I just seemed to be the logical way. Flash forward 60 years and I picked it up again. Instinctively still seems to be the way that makes sense to me. If I thought any other way I would have sights and crap all over my bows ;D ;D ;D
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It is amazing how the mind and body work together a true miracle. I'm not sure how my mind really does it and I'm not saying I'm right and someone else is wrong. It seems like when everything is really working right my eyes focus on a spot and that's all I see. Maybe my mind process more images but it seems like if I just see the spot, anchor, draw, and release correctly. Then all my mind has to do is aim my bow arm though muscle memory. I know there are some great shooters out there that do aim but so far my brain just seems to be overloaded when I see anything but the spot. I'm all for whatever make a person a better shot and do experiments with different methods and release. When I first started shooting I tried a home made thumb ring and still shot off left side of bow. I really liked
The thumb ring but it does cause some problems shooting off that side.
Bjrogg
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With instinctive shooting, as long as you are shooting at distances you are well practiced in you don't have to guess at the distance to the target, butt or deer. With the other methods I'm familiar with knowing the distance is critical.
Being able to concentrate on that spot and nothing else is what puts the arrow in that spot when released. Muscle memory and your brain takes care of everything else.
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Thumb ring shooter here, arrow on right side of bow, it the arrow is under my eye something has gone horribly horribly wrong, lol.
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Thumb ring shooter here, arrow on right side of bow, it the arrow is under my eye something has gone horribly horribly wrong, lol.
same. Also cannot aim with the string. "String blur", what's that? I imagine I could do it with a FITA style anchor with 3 fingers.. I still usually try to aim with the arrowhead or sometimes with the handle of the bow... usually doesn't go that well.
Since the arrow tail almost always hits my bow it tends to go right, but with some light spine arrows on this 25-30lb bow, it shot very very smooth and quietly and the arrows actually went a bit left! (also thumb ring)
Was never good at sports and hand/eye coordination so I don't know if instinctive would be the way to go...
I could try aiming with the left edge of the handle at shorter distances or with the bow/bow arm triangle under the arrow at longer distances like it's supposedly done for some thumb ring archery
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I've never been good at anything that requires hand/eye coordination either. That may be the reason that I've kind of stopped improving. I try to shoot every day and I shoot 72(12 rounds of 6) when I do go out. I feel that should be enough practice. I have a 20 yd range in the yard and my target is two foot square. I still manage to miss the target a couple or three times in a session. Obviously some days are better. In a six arrow round 3 are usually in a six inch group but the other three are everywhere. Everything I've read seems to concentrate on the vertical(to allow for distance) and for left/ right they just say work on your form. Left/right problems are supposedly torquing and plucking(as far as I've read). Well I guess I do both. I would like to solve the l/r portion of my shooting first and then worry about the vertical. I'm going to have to ask one of the guys at the range for help. It's closed until Sept 12 so until then I'll just keep practicing. If nothing else it's building my strength. I can use a 45# bow now where as two years ago 35# was about it. I'm starting on a 35# one now just to see if it helps with my form. I should have kept one of the ones I made two years ago. The light ones are the easiest to give away ;D
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DC, are you concentrating on each shot. Making sure that your form is right and you have a smooth draw and clean release? I used to shoot 100 arrows a day. I started to realize that the last half of my shooting session I was getting sloppy so I cut back to about a dozen or two shots per session. Once your shooting muscles are developed you shouldn't have to shoot a lot of arrows to keep in shape. About a week before hunting season I got down to 1 shot a day or one in the morning and one in the evening. When you are hunting that's all you get and usually you've been sitting for an hour or more. That one arrow will make the difference in taking home the meat or not.
Also don't grip the bow too hard and don't grip the string/arrow.
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I was having similar results from strictly instinctive shooting. I shoot three under now, which has helped. I have now changed my approach after watching one of Clay Hayes video. I let my bow arm figure out the distance to the target(like instinctive) but I sight down the arrow for my left/right alignment. I have noticed a considerable improvement in my grouping and especially stumpshooting. I find shooting groups very monotonous, but hitting targets at un-known distances exhilarating! Something that has helped me while having some backyard practice is to shoot at an object in front of my block. This helps a bunch. I find the bag/blocks hard to focus on. I have been jamming an apple on a stake in front of the bag, that has made a big difference. I will try to get up there and have a round or two with you Don!
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This is what I see with thumb draw, roughly
(https://s3.postimg.org/hx7g03hqb/Untitled.jpg)
I would expect the arrows to go left, but they tend not to. I think I really need to work on my release & follow through..
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I am with you DC.I am pretty spotty in my shooting accuracy when coming off a lay off of any length. I have to divert back togap shooting and this does involve knowing distance to some extent but not at hunting distances. I am conscious of sighting down the arrow and the gap of point to target relationship. I like to shoot some longer distances, up to 30 and 40 yds because it seems to be easier to find out what problems I am having with my form. I usually start getting more "instinctive" at my self imposed distance of 17 yds by hunting season and like Pat says my shooting is not as much and more based on the first shot accuracy.
I have to look down the arrow and it has to be under my eye when I am practicing for season but that seems to get more "instinctive" as I go into hunting mode. I feel your pain.
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Most tube shooters or gap shooters shoot 3 under that I see, that puts the arrow closer to the eye and shortens the point on distance. Not much different than shooting with 1 pin on a bow except you use the tip of the arrow and put it high or low on the target depending on the distance you are shooting. You will have a point on distance which you will have to learn where you put the tip of the arrow right where you want to hit but at any other distance you have to adjust the point of the arrow up or down. In this style it really don't matter is you close 1 eye because you need to know the distance anyway so depth perception really don't matter I shoot split with my middle finger in the corner of my mouth both eyes open, basically make sure my shoulders are squared up with the target and point , draw back to anchor touch and release. It does take practice at different distances but over time your mind will make the adjustments for you. Not sure you call it instinctive but that's how I shoot. ;) You won't get it over night and I will say most tube/gap shooters are more accurate [another can of worms] but I have watched hundred's if not thousands of Traditional shooters and most time the best shots shoot some type of aiming system but that being said about all I am interested in is hunting and that is a close up game for me so my style is fine for that if not better. ;) It all depends on what you are looking for in your shooting. ;) Sorry for the rambling ???
Pappy
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My "Shooting the Stickbow" book goes through instinctive, gap, finger walking and also "split vision". This is what you are doing Blayne. It's basically instinctive with a quick look to see if your arrow is actually pointing at the target. (You guys probably knew that) I'm also trying that. It seems to work for me. I changed my anchor point so the web of my thumb is on the back of my jawbone. This seems to have (at least temporarily) solved my target panic. It takes me a moment to settle in to my new anchor and I think it breaks the panic chain. I changed to a lighter bow, that helps a lot. I dropped about 5#. maybe one of these days I will actually shoot a "group". That will be my version of a ten point buck!
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I guess it is called split vision. Never really thought about a name, it just works for me. I have that book too, haven't gotten to that part yet ;D another thing you can do it just move up to say 5 yards and get a good group there, then 8, then 10 etc to tighten up your groups. I only have 10 yards to practice at home, and when I stump shoot I like to take shots out to 30 yards. And I am very pleased with how well I can hit what I want(or darn close) without worrying about groups. Since I am focused for hunting, stumping gets me the practice I need for that pursuit.
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A good way to help improve your shooting "instincts" is areal targets. Make some 6 feather fletched flu flu's and shoot at a round piece of foam thrown like a clay pigeon. It will help with your speed, over thinking and keeping both eyes open.
I find rifles and crossbows are for aiming with a single dominant eye, while shotguns and selfbows are more about consistent proper form and a visual target lock. If your form is on point the arrow or shot goes where your target lock is focused.
I am rather lanky so I made my selfbow draw anchor the side of my nose under my eye, which got me down to a more common draw length of 28" If I'm really shooting well I am usually a shot or two away from my finger tab smacking me in the eyeball. Most of the time I'm so focused on the target I don't see it coming. Oh well no pain no gain.
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Me myself....I look at the target not so much the arrow. I'm not smart enough to worry about two things at once ;D so I put all of my energy into my target