Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Stick Bender on June 19, 2016, 08:43:21 am
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Hi Fellas I know bow making is not a timed event but with only 3 hours a week free time I figured I would try to speed up the process a bit this is probably a subject that's been covered before but figured I would add some things I discovered I have used this process in the past for making furniture legs but fine tuned it for bows , I was amazed at how you could take off micro shavings once every thing was tuned up , I changed my blade to a 3/8 ,8 TPI & adjusted it so if you breathed on the blade it would contact the rear guide and the same for the side guides ,I drew thickness lines on the stave and tilted the saw table at a angle cut both sides and put it back flat and shaved of the middle & when done took a few swipes with a scraper plain & checked it with calipers it was almost dead flat ,I will try next week end to take it to floor tiller using this process , I was wondering what other peoples experiences with band saw tiller where ?
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More pics
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I do pretty much the same. Final tiller on the belt sander.
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I really am a fan of a ferriers rasp with the coarse and medium sides. With a stave clamped to my bench i can eat through some serious material fast. I understand not having the time as well though. I would worry about ruining a good stave myself...but thats me. You seem like you have found a system that works for you and thats all that matters!
In the future if i have the space i may get a higher end bandsaw to reduce staves down some.
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I just use draw knife, rasp, emory cloth on a file. It allways seems like I spend more time putting bow on and off tiller tree than removing wood once it's floor tiler'd.
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Well I know one thing using the rasp,scrapper & other hand tools is a lot more fun & relaxing, Ajooter you right one little slip & your done luckly I only had 2 cups of coffie before I started it almost seems sacreligious to me doing it this way but as a new bowyer I figured it would keep me moving a head on my tillering skills .
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Sam harper uses an inflatable drum sander. That thing looks like a dream to tiller with if ya wanna save some time!
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The more experienced I get the closer I can get with my roughing out on the bandsaw. I still err on the side of caution, better a tad thick than a tad thin.
I sometimes get to the ooooh, I've cut that a bit close... have I overdone it? but I find it's just ok.... whew
Del
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I already have more bows than I can use so I don't really need to speed up production. I still use the bandsaw to get close to floor tiller though. I'm just out there to fill the hours and a nice sharp scraper is a pleasure to use. :)
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I've made my bows totally by hand from day one 24 years. Draw knife, rasps, sand paper. I like to think I put a little heart,soul and sweat into my bows. If only for me. Cant see how anyone can put anything into there bows by plugging the band saw in. You might has well by a plain ed down board.
Not trying to crack on you but your missing out on a lot,lot of wood working experience. Lot of just learning about wood,bows, yourself. We all never have enough of ant of that.
And if you only have 3 hours a week to have for yourself. I don't care how you live but 3 hour's son you need to change your life style. I lose that long to short timers a week.
Hell I don't come home for 3 days lots of sometimes. If I told my old lady I'll be back in 3 hours she'd hit the floor when I slammed the door leaving. NOTE PHONE CALL I'M GONE.
SORRY CAN'T SEE ANYTING PRIMITIVE IN A BAND SAW. Couple Indians setting around the camp fire. Two get in a fight over who's next in line for the band saw.
SORRY I CAN'T SEE ANYTHING PRIMITIVE IN PLUGGING IN A BAND SAW. None of this matters to anybody but you. Have fun your way.
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I don't have a bandsaw, but I'd use one if I had one no doubt.
I have a couple sharp hatchets, and I use those to get to a heavy floor tiller, then rasps, scrapers, paper.
I sure had some funny looks at the classic a couple years ago, using a hatchet being surrounded by bandsaws.
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Wizardgoat that's a amazing way to make a bow I have herd of guys chasing a ring with one to ,I met a guy in Peoria Il. Last year that had a really nice yew bow with a sinew string & when I asked him about it he said he made it out of all stone tools ,I asked him if he was a member here he said he wasn't because most people here use steel tools & Dacron strings , croketarrow no offense taken I agree with you just thought I would give it a shot & your right I need to change my life style 4 more years & retire
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First year in making these bows I used a hatchet/draw knife/farriers' rasp/scraper/sandpaper.Made 18 of them.Learned a lot.A buddy of mine said you can make em even faster if you had a band saw.Roughing out that is close to floor tiller.He was right.Even got a spindle sander which I really like for handles and a small belt sander.But I still like said by Del rough out oversized always usually.Then hand tools still from there.
Where a band saw helps me a lot is when I get a bunch of split hedge staves on the yard and I want to reduce them quick and take bark and sapwood off so they can dry for the future.I use a 3/4" 3tpi timberwolf blade on a 2 stage speed Grizzly band saw.Cuts those 6" thick hedge staves easily.I can see how your way works for you though.Your furniture making experience helping you.With me though like you said too if I drink too much coffee and get shaky I could very well have an oooops moment......lol.
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A band saw is one tool I'm happy I have. It has saved lots of blood, sweat and tears in my wood bow building career. I use a bandsaw to reduce a stave of excess wood and to cut the stave into an oversized bow blank of almost floor tiller stage but I'd never and would never use any power tool to tiller a bow. A few reasons why...
1) I've come close on a few occasions and beyond on one or two of ruining a perfectly good piece of well seasoned bow wood trying to speed things up.
2) The process of building a wood bow with only hand tools is way more rewarding to me....and
3) I really enjoy the process of building wood bows the way I've always done it and the use of power tools beyond where I use them just doesn't do that for me.
Each person here on PA has a level and method that is comfortable to them. I can appreciate that but I got into wood bow building to help me get away from the fast pace of modern life. This has helped me develop patience and has given me the self confidence I was lacking in the past.
To each his own!
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I have tillered bows with a band saw and experimented with it quite a bit when I first started,,
now I don't feel I can go any faster with the band saw than I can with a good sharp farrier rasp,, and I feel I can see what I am doing better with the rasp as well,, if I tillered with the band saw then I have to even it up with the rasp,, if I tiller with the rasp, then I don't have to even it up,, so actually I think it saves me time with the rasp,,, no doubt that roughing one out with the saw is time saving,, but the tiller I think the rasp wins,, :) working with the rasp forces you to follow the taper as you turn the bow from side to side,,in the end I think it gives you a better tiller,, the better you get at tillering you more you realize there is no easy or faster way,, I have owned all kind of sanders etc,, and I still prefer to tiller with a rasp,,,I have more control,,, and I like that,,
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It's not about being fast for me. It's about taking the least amount of toll on my body. Why don't all you naysayers walk everywhere you go? Why use a telephone to communicate. Go see the person. How can you be "primitive" and use a computer to brag about how primitive you are?
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Nobodys' talking stone tools only here that I read.
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No Ed you are right. The original poster asked about other's experiences with band saw tillering. Somehow it got to be about an opinion on the way to make a "primitive" bow. I don't care what a person uses to get to a finished product. I know I can use power tools to do it.
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I used to use my bandsaw to floor tiller. Now being retired I value the excersize. It takes me about 1 1/2 hours more to make a bow using nothing but a draw knife and no power tools and at this stage in my life building a little muscle is more important than saving time. If I get one of those occassional nasty staves that tend to tear out with a draw knife I still am grateful for having a bandsaw.
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You know the way I look at it when it comes to making things out of wood , I use what ever tool I can in my shop from Victorian shaper plains to band saws or any other tool I have collected over the last 40 years the bottom line is to end up with a solid end product , but if I have a lot of time on my hands I do enjoy the intimacy of hand tools especially the real vintage ones , but I try to keep proficient with all of them.
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...and I do prefer to walk when I can and not drive.
Nobody on this board makes primitive bows. I doubt we have the mentality to do so anymore. Too much water under the technical bridge for that. If you want to use power tools to tiller your wood bows than have at it. That is your puragative. If you make a statement here on PA you had better be ready for the answers you get, good, bad or indifferent.
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My first few bows I used only a hatchet, 4 way rasp, and lock blade knife until sanding for finish. I didn't realize how great a great scraper is and once I did I was kicking myself for not trying one sooner.
I had a band saw for about a year and got tired of the mess and upkeep and space it took up. I have gotten to where I just want something to be as simple as possible to make bows.
Tillered a couple recently that I did using a upright mirror and just pulling string while sighting down the limbs and I like this method best.
Sure does cut down on the till tree on/off time ;)
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If you are referring to me Pat, I am always ready for answers. That is why I have my own.
...and I will use my power tools. :)
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I've made my bows totally by hand from day one 24 years. Draw knife, rasps, sand paper. I like to think I put a little heart,soul and sweat into my bows. If only for me. Cant see how anyone can put anything into there bows by plugging the band saw in. You might has well by a plain ed down board.
Not trying to crack on you but your missing out on a lot,lot of wood working experience. Lot of just learning about wood,bows, yourself. We all never have enough of ant of that.
And if you only have 3 hours a week to have for yourself. I don't care how you live but 3 hour's son you need to change your life style. I lose that long to short timers a week.
Hell I don't come home for 3 days lots of sometimes. If I told my old lady I'll be back in 3 hours she'd hit the floor when I slammed the door leaving. NOTE PHONE CALL I'M GONE.
SORRY CAN'T SEE ANYTING PRIMITIVE IN A BAND SAW. Couple Indians setting around the camp fire. Two get in a fight over who's next in line for the band saw.
SORRY I CAN'T SEE ANYTHING PRIMITIVE IN PLUGGING IN A BAND SAW. None of this matters to anybody but you. Have fun your way.
I love how this guy's the first one to jump in and mock people and how they do things. I also love how he romanticizes what stone age people did. I love primitive skills and primitive weaponry but there's a reason why it fell by the wayside. Almost all primitive people jumped on technology first chance they got. If you had the ability to disappear for days on end you do not live like most people. I have a job, a family and lots of responsibilities that do not allow me to disappear. Myself also only has few hours a week in the shop and I make things however I want and encourage the rest of you to do the same regardless of what Mr primitive says....
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Sometimes I cringe with self embarrasement when I see these threads. When I was first starting I wanted to mass produce bows, I have no idea why I was just on a bow making binge for a few years. I tried to duplicate the mass production processes I learned in industry and saw no logic at all in wasting anytime making a bow. As the years went by I found myself more and more enjoying the process and the physical excersize of using hand tools. I still value the old mass production days because I was able to test one theory after another or one experiment after another. I say do whatever the hell it is you like doing, it may change over time but whatever you do enjoy it.
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I agree pauly, heck I've made bows with axes before but with my wrists it makes no sense, I'm not so sure rasps and drawknifes are truly primitive anyway. Some people just like to spout off i guess
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Heck I make all my bows by hand with basically no power tools. But when I grab anyone of my hand tools I know by definition primitive is out the window. I prefer to make a bow with a hatchet but I never say someone who does different does not know how to to enjoy it. Sorry for the rant but he seems to not share information but to display it as the one and only way which is not what I believe this site is all about.
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I can't find the "like" button....
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I hear you guys who only have an hour or two here and there to work on your bow. Me too. I don't have a bandsaw, but I do have a table saw and heavy duty jig saw that I rely on for roughing in my bows. On the rare weekend evening after I've done the to-do list, I do enjoy roughing in a stave with a hatchet 'cuz it gives me a nice, peaceful feeling. Every bow I make is from a combination of power and hand tools. I like what they both have to offer.
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When I started this thread I thought I was going to get some input on machine set up or blade combos,technic & such, but I got so much more Lol, I agree with Pauly & badger what ever tools I use I just try to enjoy and get a sence of self satisfaction , glad to know I'm not alone on the no time thing but it's good to see every body's opinions
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Stick bender I hope I didn't offend you I really don't care what tools one makes a bow with. I guess for me it could take a couple months to tiller a bow cause I don't work steady at it. I see nothing wrong with roughing out your bow using whatever tools you want to use to get it to a heavy floor tiller. What I was saying is after floor tiler for me it takes more time putting bow on and off tree, studying the bend deciding what to remove and what not to. When I read your post I got feeling you want to continue tilering with bandsaw after floor tiler. I don't know if anyone else does that but I'd have hard enough time not screwing up just getting to floor tiler good luck however you proceed.
Bjrogg
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I can't imagine myself working on a stave with any electrical tools,
I'd screw up in a few minutes.
I like to take my time doing things,
The only thing I have no patience with is waiting for staves to dry!
Anyway, I guess it would be a good idea to use a bandsaw to get it to a rough shape,
And then refining it with a draw knife and finishing the tiller with a scraper.
At least , that's what I do, only, I don't have a drawknife , instead , I use a normal hunting knife.
Good luck!
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Stick bender, I am not a nay sayer,, if someone has the skill to tiller with a band saw great,, I just do better with rasp,,,probably because I have used it the most,, do what works the best for you for sure,,
I am a painter,, I still just draw the subject on the canvas and paint it by hand,, whew,, just like the old days, well some guys project the image on the canvas ,, trace it and then draw it in,, some have the image digitally printed on the canvas and paint that,,,, I can probably have mine drawn before someone can set up a projector, or does a digital image,,,,because I use that skill every day,, and I find it more efficient,,,,,thats kind of the way I look at the tools,,,, I have enjoyed everyones input,, I think its all valid,, if you are having fun, or fulfilled with the bow you make,, and especially learning something,, what ever that might be,, even if it is patience and learning to respect another point of view,,, :)
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Fellas some of you guys know me better then others but I dont get offended easely I never said I was offended , Gun control & High taxes offend me but nothing any body said here did I actually like the free imput of ideas , I have only made 8 bows & some of you here have saved my butt from making some mistakes , theres a lot of talent here & its good every body can share it along with there opinions.
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...and I do prefer to walk when I can and not drive.
Nobody on this board makes primitive bows. I doubt we have the mentality to do so anymore. Too much water under the technical bridge for that. If you want to use power tools to tiller your wood bows than have at it. That is your puragative. If you make a statement here on PA you had better be ready for the answers you get, good, bad or indifferent.
I have and I still have the 'mentality', actually the word ability is better suited. We also have the ability to walk/run everywhere, the ancients could run 200 miles in a day....think about that....maybe we aren't all that 'superior'. We have the latent ability to do a huge amount of truly amazing things - knocking up a bow with stone tools isn't that hard....Pat the human hasn't changed - the nonsense we are force feed through the media etc is what has changed our mentalities. We are all wonderful creations but are slowly being turned into lazy/overweight/none thinking zombies.
Maybe it would be a good thing for us ALL to make a stone tool only bow - to remind us how 'easy' (read boring!) our modern lives are. Making things 'easy' is not a good thing.
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the ancients could run 200 miles in a day....think about that....
Now just where was this documented?
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I won't lie, I've thought about doing this. But speed is not my friend. The slower I go, the better chance of a bow happening. All of the bad results I have had are due to going too fast, and most of them are due to the band saw. Whatever works for you, I will support it!
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This all just silly...
Use the tools you want.
My bandsaw saves my elbows and finger joint which give me gyp.
But I know full well I could make a bow with stone tools if the need arose. The harder thing is the string.
I'm primitive enough for Mrs Cat :-* and that's good enough for me :laugh:.
Del
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I simply love wooden bows and leave the drama for soap operas.
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And one more thing. Like older folks and drivers licenses, Roy you need you keyboard revoked.
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Mike; I don't know how the rest of the forum feels about being dismissed as lazy people living boring lives, but it pisses me off no end. I had a paragraph written about my life as a single parent raising my 11 year old daughter after my wife died, while working mandatory 12 hour shifts. But screw it, I don't owe you an explanation.
If you feel your life is too easy and simply making a bow with stone tools will remedy that, have at it. Just don't assume that everyone else has the same simple "problems".
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I pretty much take opinions with a grain of salt,,and just enjoy the bow making info ,,, and there is alot of great info,,,,Ok I need to work on a bow now,, :)
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I only have a 10 inch band saw. Therefore I hand split logs as much as possible. I usually use my band saw to get staves to close to floor tiller stage. After that draw knife is safer and as fast as band saw. But it feels good to use a band saw to floor tiller a stave, so that I can finish it with just a goose neck scraper. It only takes a couple of hour to make a bow that way. I try hard not to use the sanding machine, sanders, or even sand papers, except for the tips. If you wanna make bows fast, get the best scrapers you can get!
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Mike; I don't know how the rest of the forum feels about being dismissed as lazy people living boring lives, but it pisses me off no end. I had a paragraph written about my life as a single parent raising my 11 year old daughter after my wife died, while working mandatory 12 hour shifts. But screw it, I don't owe you an explanation.
If you feel your life is too easy and simply making a bow with stone tools will remedy that, have at it. Just don't assume that everyone else has the same simple "problems".
I am fat and lazy, and I can make excuses all day about not having time to do whatever. The sad truth is I have all the time in the world to do anything I want. I just choose to prioritize things differently than others. I don't think Mike was lumping anyone into that boat, but in my case it's true. I'm lazy, and fat due to my laziness.
I would think that a higher TPI blade would work out pretty well, if you are using it as a rasp, and not to cut. Just my 2 cents.
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Couple of years ago maybe 3, I set out to make an Osage bow without power tools. Just to say that I had, nothing more. I got it roughed out with a tommy hatchet and draw knife. Looked like a bow but had lots of meat that had to come off before it would bend any. It was at that point that I said OK, that's enough. I can do this, but the time invested is more than I want to spend from here forward. I finished it the "old fashioned way" with a belt sander. I do this for no other reason than I enjoy it. Anything that adds to that enjoyment gets to hang around, and anything that takes away from it is done away with if possible. I love the praise that I sometimes get when I have posted a bow PA. Who wouldn't? But I don't build them to suit anyone else. I was making bows before the internet and almost no one ever saw any of them but myself and a few close friends. I have joked about this before, that with the ability to post bows on PA I no longer have to take my newly finished bows to dinner parties. My wife is particularly happy with that! I once brain tanned an Axis deer hide. The purists in my little circle were apoplectic over the idea. To top it off I threw it in the close dryer with a pair of tennis shoes during the last stages of drying as I couldn't get it completely dry at the end of several days of pulling on it, so for several mornings I would resoak and start again. The dryer trick worked perfectly. The hide made a beautiful beaded gun case for me and were it not for my telling you all this, no one would know. I'm also pretty sure that after that, some of my purist buddies secretly used the dryer trick when nobody was looking.
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Once you get used to a draw knife when working osage you will find it goes pretty fast. I routinely will start a bow about 8 am in the morning and be shooting by 1 pm. Thats with numerous computer breaks inbetween. I figure about 1 hour to chase a ring and rough out the profile, another hour to reduce the stave to floor tiller and about 2 hours to tiller. The finish work is another thing all together. I keep mine simple so will usually not spend more than about 2 hours on a finish.
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Just read a few of these, but is any bow really primitive unless we scratch all the excess wood off of the stave with our fingernails or perhaps gnaw off the heavier stuff with our incisors?
I mean to each his own, ...but a real primitive styled bow has to be handcrafted patiently while the wood speaks to you. I understand the urge to pick up a sharp edged rock and hurry the process along, but is that really what it is supposed to be about?
OneBow
BTW - no fair eating mass production foods while building a primitive bow either! The stave can sense the presence of GMO corn on your breath if you try to gnaw its bark and fibers while eating unclean foods. Better to stick to fresh caught grubs and wild picked berries roasted over a friction started fire in order to get the FULL primitive experience.
BTW2 - don't even get me started on the whole sleeping indoors thing while trying to build a primitive bow...
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To me the bow is primitive if it has the geometry of bows made by some primitive maker of an earlier era. Making it by primitive means is a different aspect (also legitimate).
I made my first real bow about 20 years ago. I used hand tools start to finish. That's when I decided I needed a band saw. I would rather shoot primitive bows than make them.
Back to the OP's questions. I don't bother to tilt the table when roughing out the belly. I just tilt the stave. Otherwise, I do as you do. I also sometimes use the blade as a rasp if there is a lot of wood to remove. One of the authors of Vol. I of the Traditional Bowyer's Bible mentioned that technique--with a stern warning about how fast it can eat wood.
I only make pyramid design bows and always bring them to floor tiller on the band saw. Often, they come from the saw ready for nocks and bracing.
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Stick bender, just got my computer back so sorry for the late reply. I use my bandsaw like a carving tool....the table always stays flat. I move the wood through the blade by eye and feel. Obviously you can make regular cuts but can also "shave" and "carve" with it also. I use a 3/4 3 hook blade ....I use the "hook" tooth profile and set so that i can use the side of the blade as I deem necessary.
I'm 70 now and still got all my fingers.....and drivers licenses too 8) For what it's worth there is this same nonsense in the wood carving arena as well....chisels VS power carvers so my recommendation is get the waste wood off the stick any way that makes sense to you, develope your hobby anyway that gives you some pleasant time spent....other folks opinions shouldn't bother you at all.
rich
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Thanks for the coments Rich Im also a wood carver I like using the higher TPI blades as they work as a micro rasp where I dont remove to much wood paticularly on days with to many trips to the coffie pot I save the others for actual cutting I have a veneare blade her I was going to give it a shot also good luck on your works look foward to seeing your next shortie bow !
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Well Stick Bender it sounds like it's possible to tiler with bandsaw from what I'm reading and I believe that was your real question. My Grandma live to the age of 94. She was a happy lady as far as I could tell always giggling. She past about 12 years ago but the thing I remember her saying the most was "the good old days, the good old days, what the hell was so good about them. Anyone who tells you that never lived through them. I like my indoor plumbing, kitchen, bathroom, washing machine. The only thing she missed was the horses she never learned to drive. Good luck happy bow building
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I don't own a bandsaw because I have no space for it, yet. I would use one if I had one.--But since I don't, I made a shave horse and do all my work with a draw knife and a scraper, with a couple of cheap rasps thrown in. I find sitting on my homemade shave horse very satisfying, and probably as quick as a band saw for most applications. Lot's of ways to get something done.
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I'm the same jeffp51 but without the shave horse. Would like to make one of those. More than one way to skin a cat
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I'm the same jeffp51 but without the shave horse. Would like to make one of those. More than one way to skin a cat
I have a band saw, and 2 shave horses! Now if I only had a Building partner! :'(
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JMO, but a primitive bow is any bow built with all natural materials. I.E., self bow, sinew, wood horn composite, etc. shouldn't matter if you use a CNC mill to make it.. Primitive "building" techniques are a whole different story...
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JMO, but a primitive bow is any bow built with all natural materials. I.E., self bow, sinew, wood horn composite, etc. shouldn't matter if you use a CNC mill to make it.. Primitive "building" techniques are a whole different story...
Do you use only hide glue? How about primitive tools?
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I know better than to get involved in these type discussions, since it doesn't really matter to me how others build a bow. If it works and they're happy, than I'm happy for them. To answer your questions, I use every tool I have. Bandsaw, table saw, thickness sander, ridged sander, etc. never claimed to build using primitive techniques. The wood bows I've made, almost as primitive as it gets. Self bows with self nocks . Primitive finish? Nope. string? Nope. Do I care? Nope. I did sinew and snakeskin a couple of kids bows, just to learn how. (Yes, hide glue!)
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I know better than to get involved in these type discussions, since it doesn't really matter to me how others build a bow. If it works and they're happy, than I'm happy for them. To answer your questions, I use every tool I have. Bandsaw, table saw, thickness sander, ridged sander, etc. never claimed to build using primitive techniques. The wood bows I've made, almost as primitive as it gets. Self bows with self nocks . Primitive finish? Nope. string? Nope. Do I care? Nope. I did sinew and snakeskin a couple of kids bows, just to learn how. (Yes, hide glue!)
Every Time someone starts a topic about doing something a different way, someone always brings up "That isn't primitive". The fact is, not many tools we use to make bows here are primitive tools. Not many glues used are primitive. And for sure, not many techniques are primitive.
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Hi
all this is my first post on this site and I certainly do not want to offend anyone. The reason I joined this forum was to gain knowledge of how to build a self bow. While it intrigues me to learn a primitive way to produce a bow I had a grandfather that always told me " Laziness is the key to invention. I think throughout history mankind has always sought an easier way to do things. That being said wouldn't a bandsaw be considered a primitive tool 200 years from now? I think if one can master all tools new and old that person should be considered a skilled craftsman . That's my 2 cents worth :-\
TxHrvstr
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I wouldn't worry too much about offending anyone. Well except for that PEARL DRUMS character, keep your eye on him. Come on in and join the party.
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<snip>Well except for that PEARL DRUMS character, keep your eye on him. Come on in and join the party.
I doubt Pearly even noticed you mentioned him a post. He's too busy configuring his new custom built 3D Printer to lay down a matrix of Osage and Bamboo Stem cells on a Bio-Fiber matrix template that is going to grow overnight into a pre-tillered Bow... ;)
OneBow
P.S. - Welcome to the addiction TxH