Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: loon on June 18, 2016, 03:53:27 pm
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The grain of the back of this bow is just....
(https://i.imgur.com/BXqDwSq.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1bn5qnB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hNtiO9F.jpg)
Got it from ringing rocks archery, the return period of 2 weeks has long since passed (it's been several months).
And this 62".. no, 64" hickory bow is supposed to be 70-75#@28.5". If it was 30 to 40#, I would be less worried. I have a 71" bow from them that's around 35#@28" that has similar violations but has held up okay... but it's 35#.
Would 2 layers of grocery paper bags applied with hide glue possibly be enough to keep this thing from exploding if drawn to 28.5"?
Maybe I should just ask them to send me another one if it explodes without backing it or anything. And wear safety glasses...
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I'm guessing that at that weight.. It's most likely to raise up splinters on those run-offs and end up delaminating on you..
About the backing, you'll have to wait for someone to answer as I've never backed a bow with paper.
I'm pretty sure that rawhide would do the job though.
Good luck!
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Thanks!
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You say it's supposed to be that weight. Was this a finished bow?
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You say it's supposed to be that weight. Was this a finished bow?
I ordered it as 70-75#@28" and that's what the marking on the side says, it is thick and a beast to string, especially as a straight bow (I have strung it and drawn it a few inches but don't dare take it to full draw)
It's a "you finish" bow. It's been unfinished all along. Planning to use tru-oil.
hm... would 2 layers of paper soaked in hide glue work as well as rawhide?
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Back it with hi kory or bamboo. Thats unacceptable as for quality.
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Maybe I could back it with bamboo and end up with a 80-90lbs bow ahahah. All the bamboo I have is meant for flooring or something though, but it could work...
Amazing that they picked such a bad stave for such a heavy bow.. I kind of doubt that they even actually tiller them to full draw as well. It came with no set but stringing it gave it set.
I suppose you get what you pay for...
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no paper won't do it,,
I am not sure anything would at the weight you are talking bout,,
it just has alot of run off, not really bow wood,,,,
i am all for fixing anything,, but you would have a better chance of success with a board from home depot,,
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Hickory is tough as nails as they say and paper backing will hold a lot but at the kind of weight your talking even I have my doubts on this one.
You are also good to ? If this bow has been tillered out, I do not think so
best git to tillering it down to somthing less in poundage depending on what you decide to back it with 50 may be more realistic
have fun
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If that was sold as a "you-finish self bow", I would contact the supplier (include a pic) and see what they have to say about that grain. I can't imagine any reputable supplier would: 1) expect that "stave" to survive as a 70#(or even 40#) self bow of any style 2) consider that board fit for bow making.
I would also mention the comments you received about that board from this forum's members. Make sure you let him know you can't wait to show us all the quality replacement when it arrives. Trying to use a board like that could result in an injury or two. Telling someone to go ahead and finish that "bow", is pretty much gross negligence and bad business period.
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Unfortunately, thats the way these fly by night internet businesses work these days.By the time,buyers figure them out and word gets around,they have made a profit and move on,to the next scam.
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Indeed.
Money ruins everything once again.
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Hate to tell you but that's firewood. Regardless of what the maker says when that thing pulls apart it will do in a spectacular fashion and truly has a chance of hurting you or someone else. All wood bows can break but that thing violates multiple rules. I would consider it a lesson learned and move on
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KNOTTY not the bows weight caused it it was the grain running off the edge. I've made a couple hickory bows a 87,89 and 92 pounder. Quite few in the 70# range.
HICKORYS MY FAVORET WHITE WOOD. I hav'nt backed a bow in 15 years never used paper before.
Throw it in the Conner one day make a kid a bow.
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I said at that weight with those run offs it obviously will delaminate.
I didn't only say at that weight. I know Hickory can withstand huge amounts of tension stress..
👍
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They said the 30-day warranty expired, though for unfinished products they say they have 2 weeks for returns.
welp
Guess I'll try making a 35-40# bow out of this (paper backed) and see what happens.
Has anyone had good experience with the Rudder Bows floor-tillered staves? They seem pretty cheap. Though home depot would be cheaper
Thanks for all the replies
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Ringing Rocks, the only ringing rocks will be when that thing blows a limb and pops you in the crotch. Warranty expired or no, I would demand a replacement or my money back as you purchased a bow and was sent a firewood. If anywhere in your order was listed a bow as the item you were purchasing this is NOT what was ordered.
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The paper bag will literally do nothing for you. if the bows going to break,some paper isn't going to keep that from happening.
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Rudder.....
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Rudder.....
Huh
The paper bag will literally do nothing for you. if the bows going to break,some paper isn't going to keep that from happening.
It's hickory, could probably hold. Apparently paper (soaked in hide glue?) could do as well as rawhide.
But it may be more worth it to make a bow from a straight-grained board.
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Bamboo is the only thing id put on it. Other than some gasoline that is.
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If I glued some bamboo on it with titebond 3, would it hold at high draw weight?
May just throw it out or burn it somewhere
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Why shouldn't it loon?
You're adding the boo and not removing wood.
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With all the knowledge and free advice on this site just get a good board of hard maple and build a bow from scratch, you will find it much more satisfying. I have a build a long in the how to's for layout and dimensions
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The only thing paper will do is help if it goes to lift a sliver, i don't know where you got the idea it is as good as rawhide but it's not. Even rawhide won't help if it is gonna blow up
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paper is not as good a rawhide,,, or cow skin would be made of paper,, :)
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What bubby said X 2. Go to your local lumberyard or home improvement store and look through all of the hard maple (or hickory) boards. Pick out the one with the straightest ring lines on the board's face. Follow his build along and post on here if you need some advice. Before you know it, you'll have a bow. One that you made. ;)
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I thought I already posted on this thread.LOL. A straight grained red oak is hard to beat. No knots. Hickory will do too as will maple. I agree with Bubby also. Info on my site.
http://traditionalarchery101.com/
Jawge
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Just for the record paper was used for the old fiber backings in the 30s because it is actually stronger than rawhide.
Paper micarta is even stronger than linen micarta which is counterintuitive to our views of fiber orientation.
You need to compare similar thicknesses though.
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For the record pat paper micarta is paper and resins, you know like fiberglass. And the old bows i have seen from way back in the day weren't just paper. Back in the day they also thought it was a good idea to use an xray nachine to see if your shoes fit right lol old ways ain't always better or safe
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Take a piece of paper then a piece of rawhide and try to rip them. See which one you can rip easier, there's no comparison.
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Paper would be stiffer, and should be much harder to tear without a twisting motion, but maybe not that hard. Soaking it in hide glue may change it a bit..and paper is so much easier to get
66" ttt? I hope that'll fit in our car, 71" doesn't.. Thanks bubby. Friend wants to follow your tutorial as well. Maple sounds good, may try that or hickory
Lots of talk and no action but I'm fantasizing that, after making a few bows, I may want to do a narrow (1" to 1+1/8" at the handle) slight bendy handle D bow, 40#@28.5", maybe 62" long, realistic with hickory? if not, with what woods?
Could make a slightly bendy static recurve, maybe sinew backed... so many ideas. But for now pyramid bows sound good!
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For the record pat paper micarta is paper and resins, you know like fiberglass. And the old bows i have seen from way back in the day weren't just paper. Back in the day they also thought it was a good idea to use an xray nachine to see if your shoes fit right lol old ways ain't always better or safe
The point is that paper and glue make a matrix that is much stronger than people assume by tearing a single piece of paper.
So a purist might want to use multiple layers of paper and hide glue and then string up the product with some Fastflite and see how it does. ;)
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Take a piece of paper then a piece of rawhide and try to rip them. See which one you can rip easier, there's no comparison.
Compare them in the condition they will be applied in. You can tear a piece of rawhide easily as soon as you get a slight cut in it.
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Loon 66" ttt will work
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If you look around and contact local saw mills, you can get a whole tree of 12 inch diameter for around $100. I get them even delivered in two or three already cut logs. Nothing beats staves you hand split from logs.
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the rawhide(unprocessed) I use will not tear easily,, even with a cut,, its the same rawhide I use for african drums,, goat or calf,,,I guess a really thin rawhide would tear,, but something medium( or the thickness it came off the animal,,not processed )will not tear, even when a hole is cut for the ropes to go through to tighten the drum,,,I understand and agree paper layered with glue is stronger,,,, but I don't think it can equal rawhide,,, and I don't think it will hold a bow together like the one in question,,,I think it would be mostly cosmetic,, :) if you are looking for something easier,, some kind of cloth glued together would be better than paper,,
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Took in consideration Denim? Never tried it but I heard it works..
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Denim is to heavy and stretchy, get some linen or old silk ties
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Try to avoid the ones that say "Happy Fathers Day". A least for a week or so :D
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That grain looks far from ideal for a 70lb bow. However thin ringed flatsawn grain going into riftsawn can be deceptive. What you really need to look at is the side of the bow and measure the distance of the grain from the back to the belly.
A grain crossing of 16" or more, either on the front or sides was the acceptable standard for a narrow English, lemonwood, lumber bow.
Wider, flatter bellied bows can tolerate shorter dimensions of grain crossing.
Hickory is also stronger in tension than lemonwood.
Find out the distance that the grain crosses on the sides of the limb back to belly record the distance...then measure the thickness of the limb at these points record the measurement? Also how wide are the limbs at the widest point, and how wide are they at the tips?
Now I should be able to ascertain just how bad those grain violations actually are. I don't want to give you false hope, its probably too much for a 70lber, but it might be salvageable for a 40-50lber.
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That grain looks far from ideal for a 70lb bow. However thin ringed flatsawn grain going into riftsawn can be deceptive. What you really need to look at is the side of the bow and measure the distance of the grain from the back to the belly.
A grain crossing of 16" or more, either on the front or sides was the acceptable standard for a narrow English, lemonwood, lumber bow.
Wider, flatter bellied bows can tolerate shorter dimensions of grain crossing.
Hickory is also stronger in tension than lemonwood.
Find out the distance that the grain crosses on the sides of the limb back to belly record the distance...then measure the thickness of the limb at these points record the measurement? Also how wide are the limbs at the widest point, and how wide are they at the tips?
Now I should be able to ascertain just how bad those grain violations actually are. I don't want to give you false hope, its probably too much for a 70lber, but it might be salvageable for a 40-50lber.
Width mid-limb and after fades: 1.5" -- 3.8cm
Width at nock: 5/8" -- 1.6cm
Thickness after fades: 1/2" -- 1.27cm
Thickness mid-limb: 7/16" -- 1.11cm
Thickness at nock/tip: 6/16" -- 0.9525cm
Length ntn: 62"
In one side (of the sides), the grain seems pretty straight, on the other it runs off at 5-6".
(https://static.pcout.in/096e7e13-7cd7-492c-b0b4-5d4601ce9cab.png)
(https://static.pcout.in/bb94b257-d8db-4e40-8f61-350380693785.png)
(https://static.pcout.in/dc2ab5bb-8350-4c01-bc5b-cbc396bccf2d.png)
Thanks!..
I think I'll end up making a maple or hickory pyramid bow from a hardware store board. Would it be a bad idea to target 70# for a first bow? 40# is likely more realistic...
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The worst run off seems to be near the tip which is usually stiffer in the tiller and less stressed part of the limb. Mid limb run off looks acceptable for a 50lber.
5-6" is pushing it if the limb is around 7/16" deep. 7/16" x 16 = 7" would be acceptable for the grain to cross for a 50lber. I normally do 1:20 for hickory backings eg 1/8" thick slat grain should not cross less than 2&1/2 " 1/8" x 20 = 2&1/2. By this ratio 7/16 x 20= 8&3/4" would be even better. Not saying it wouldn't hold up at your dimensions, hickory is amazing stuff but I personally would have rejected that slat in the first place. For anything over 60lbs I insist on only using best straight grain.
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Maybe toasting it a little and backing it with bamboo at some point would work ok. or using it to make bbq... :P
Hey, it could make a 40lber? paper backed? maybe if I get more free time at some point, I think my time is better used for better wood
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All those backing only reduce the shrapnel. Go with a solid wood or bamboo back. Yes it will hold if your tiller is good. If you make a 30# out of it you probably wont need a back. 40# is pushing it. I wouldn't.