Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Mounter on May 03, 2016, 11:26:23 pm

Title: How fast?
Post by: Mounter on May 03, 2016, 11:26:23 pm
Say I cut down an Osage tree tomorrow, debarked and reduced to near bow demensions. Is there time to have dried and workable by September?
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: bubby on May 04, 2016, 12:15:02 am
Should be able to, i believe one of the tbb has an chapter on speed drying
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Tuomo on May 04, 2016, 05:25:45 am
If you keep the stave inside, in dry place (below 40 % RH), it will be dry in 3-4 days and very dry (stable) in 10 days. Osage is quite dense so just add a couple of days to be sure. You can weigh the stave regularly and when the weight of the staves drops about 0,5 % per day, the stave is dry enough.
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Pappy on May 04, 2016, 06:50:14 am
You can , but I wouldn't. :)
 Pappy
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: mikekeswick on May 04, 2016, 07:06:56 am
September is 6 months away. No problem just don't rush it too early. Let the intial moisture loss happen slowly then you can speed up the dring progressively as time passes. Weight the stave regularly and you'll see a pattern.
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Pat B on May 04, 2016, 08:22:13 am
I agree with Pappy. You can but I wouldn't.
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Eric Krewson on May 04, 2016, 08:25:56 am
All of us experienced bow makers have dabbled in speed drying. I have ruined some really nice osage in the process, deep checking and twisting were the result of my attempts.
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: akila on May 04, 2016, 08:26:55 am
Completely dry in 10 days?? I'm sorry, but i realdy dont think so...with the stave reduced to bow dimensions, it should be possibile to make a bow in 6 weeks or so..it depends ofcours on a fiew factors, but in 10 days, its impossibile. I just bought an osage stave on ebay, and it was cut in november last year. It still had the bark on it, but it was not a very thick piece of wood aniway, and its still not completely dry..i had to seal the ends and the back after i removed the sap wood, an now it still loses 15grams per day weight.
Reduce the stave to bow dimensions, seal the back, and the ends, and check every week to see how much weight is being lost.  I would say that in 4-6 weeks, it should be stable. But remember, dry enugh, is not the same with cure enugh. It will always be a direference between a piece of wood wich is stable (dry)but lets stay 2 months ''old'', and a piece of wood, wich  is one year old, or even moore.
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Lumberman on May 04, 2016, 08:58:58 am
For oak you don't want to lose more than 3% MC a day or you run the risk of checking and the following internal checking called honeycomb, I imagine that would not be too far of a safe rate from Osage. Plus the warping and twisting could be too severe but we properly stick and weigh down to avoid those issues so I am not as sure what the safe rate of loss is there
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Mounter on May 04, 2016, 11:37:10 am
Thanks for the advise everyone.  I figured it's not the best way, but I'm on a mission.. My little farm here has tons of osage on it and possibly wasting a stave or two is not a huge deal.

Just to explain my hurry ... I made a rule years ago that I would only harvest deer on this place with bows I made, with wood from the farm. A few years ago, I made a osage riser, hickory limb glass bow, with home grown wood.. I'd really like to go primative this year.. I have a hunting weight osage bow I made years ago, but it wasen't cut here.. Call me wierd, but it wouldn't be the same..

Anyways, I have a few trees picked out, I'll try to get a pic. or two up for advise on the best one.. Thanks again!
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Pat B on May 04, 2016, 11:40:04 am
I you had cut the osage a few years ago when you cut the other it would have been ready now.
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Mounter on May 04, 2016, 11:48:16 am
That is sound wisdom Pat. Too bad I'm not a wise man! :)
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Tuomo on May 05, 2016, 12:30:44 am
I had three rowan stave, cut to rough bow dimensions (length 200 cm, width 50 mm, thickness 30 mm). I took them inside where it was +20 C and 30 % RH. From forest to drying place it took about one hour. See this chart. Y-axis is weight relative to starting (wet) weight and X-axis is time in days. As you can see, 10 days is enough.

Zero problems with the staves. I have also one oak stave drying fast and no problems. Of course with syringa, serviceberry, etc., difficult woods prone to check, you have to be careful.

When the stave is dry, it is dry. I think it is just a myth that bow wood gets better with the time. To prove this is not the fact, I will made three bows from those "young" rowans, test them now and test them after one and two and three years to see if there is any improvements. So, I will be back!
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: mikekeswick on May 05, 2016, 02:56:58 am
If a bow checks - you've dried it too fast. Warping is linked to the same thing but if you cut a tree that wanted to warp....and then didn't reduce it correctly....guess what...it'll warp.
There are ways around these problems but if you just go blindly ahead and try to rush drying a stave you will get checking /warp problems.
Like I said do the intial drying slowly and then speed it up. You will have a great bow if you do your job tillering.
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Eric Krewson on May 05, 2016, 08:52:00 am
I have found if I let a stave get to 16%MC before I put it in my drying box I won't experience and problems speed drying it the rest of the way.
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: bradsmith2010 on May 05, 2016, 01:55:34 pm
yes let it get to 16% or so,, but if you clamp it down in a floor tillered state,, it won't warp,, be sure and coat the back and handle and fade area, the thicker areas try to check when you rush,,,, it will be dry enough to make a bow by sept,,,, I agree it is better to cure more slowly,, but a good hunting bow can be made as stated,, it may follow the string more than a more cured stave,, or check slightly if you heat treat , that is the trade off, but if you shoot a deer he won't know the difference,, :) good luck with your project,, hope you get one,,
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: sapling bowyer on May 06, 2016, 01:25:19 am
If we do not have clamps, can we use weights on the limbs to stop it from warping?
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Carson (CMB) on May 06, 2016, 01:39:07 am
Like Mike said. Take it slow then ramp it up.

I havent done any speed drying of osage, but I have pushed other woods along. I like to speed season it when I do. That is, I will subject it to varying humidity, temperature, and pressures towards the end of the process. I dont put much thought or effort into it, I just move the stave around the shop (uninsulated) and in and out of the hot box over the course of several weeks while I am working on other bows. I feel like the wood becomes more stable and less likely to encounter surprises later, than if you just force it one way towards dry.
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Pappy on May 06, 2016, 06:42:07 am
Can you quick dry and make a shootable bow from Osage , of course you can if you are careful, can you make the best bow that piece of wood could have made NO IMO, I have made enough from Osage to know their is a difference in dry and seasoned, I know I just opened a can of worms. ;) :) :) If you are on a mission like you said then go for it. :)
 Pappy
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: George Tsoukalas on May 06, 2016, 08:04:39 am
Mounter, yes you could have a shooter by then if you were a fairly experienced bowyer.
During Nov of 1989, I decided I wanted to make a bow. I finally got a hunting weight shooter some time during the early 90's. Jawge
http://traditionalarchery101.com/
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Pat B on May 06, 2016, 10:17:57 am
Sapling, you can bind the stave to a 2x4 with twine or thin rope if you don't have clamps.
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: ryder on May 06, 2016, 11:08:25 am
I'm quite interested in this thread. Although I am FAR from an experienced bowyer, Tim Baker writes in the Traditional Bowyer's Bible Vol. 4 (pg 22) that any wood can be dried to the highest quality in days, and that the idea that wood must be long cured to make a decent bow is a myth. He then goes on to say that any time such a myth is raised it should be challenged vigorously. I could only describe that as strong words.

However, I've also noticed from my own learning curve of quick drying wood, it can have a tendency to check and warp if not handled correctly. So I suppose that drying wood in a matter of days/week or two is quite possible, but might take considerable experience and expertise to handle perfectly...? and that slow drying has been demonstrated to be unnecessary, but it may well be the safest route...?
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: PatM on May 06, 2016, 12:03:18 pm
Yes but not once did I hear Tim describe splitting a  log and making one half into a bow in a week or so and leaving the other half for at least a year and then comparing the two.

    There is no doubt that a decent or even very good bow can be made in a  very short period of time though.

 It's whether the last few percentage points of excellence matter to you and make it worthwhile to be patient.
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Eric Krewson on May 06, 2016, 01:39:45 pm
All my osage has been cut for 10 years or more so I guess I am using seasoned wood.

One other thing I have found to promote the seasoning idea; I carefully spined all my multitude of wood arrow shafting years ago. Ten years later most of what I spined has gained 3# to 5 # over the first spine check done years ago.
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Mounter on May 10, 2016, 01:49:08 pm
Good discussion, my ears are wide open...
As far as experience, A whole lot of book learning, TBB 123&4, Comstocks book, Torges books, a couple others, Plus alot of PA magazines starting with Volume 1, issue 1. I was a subscriber for 5 or 6 years, plus a bunch bought of the shelf..
Hands on experience, A G. Davis bow blank , and a couple osage staves that had already had the ring chased, plus a few osage kids bows. I'm sure the tiller could be better on all, but so far they survive. Plus a couple hickory bows that I cut and split myself... They survive, but not so good of bows.

Anyway, I hope I don't over step my bounds, but I'll post some pics. of a bunch of trees, they'll probably all get cut eventually, but right now I'm just looking for a good one to try and speed dry a stave from..
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Mounter on May 10, 2016, 01:57:22 pm
TEST?

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt61/kevin12306/003_zpssfljlzl8.jpg) (http://s598.photobucket.com/user/kevin12306/media/003_zpssfljlzl8.jpg.html)

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt61/kevin12306/004_zps5uknf2qh.jpg) (http://s598.photobucket.com/user/kevin12306/media/004_zps5uknf2qh.jpg.html)
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Mounter on May 10, 2016, 02:15:06 pm
Guess it worked? Hope they aren't to big?

I read somewhere that where they grow can make a difference so this is an over view. All the potential victims are in about a 40 yard circle here. It's a natural spring area, that stays wet year round.

So some close up, I think there's 8 to choose from. Big ones first, This ones about 12/14 inch diameter, with a bout a 7 foot straight section.
 (http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt61/kevin12306/011_zpsaigtnrzm.jpg) (http://s598.photobucket.com/user/kevin12306/media/011_zpsaigtnrzm.jpg.html)

This ones bigger and I could probably get 2 6' plus section if that limb on the left is not a problem.
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt61/kevin12306/764d11b3-71d4-4c42-8b1e-29f82572a006_zpsdp9am6fj.jpg) (http://s598.photobucket.com/user/kevin12306/media/764d11b3-71d4-4c42-8b1e-29f82572a006_zpsdp9am6fj.jpg.html)
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Mounter on May 10, 2016, 02:29:34 pm
10/12 inch, a forked limb on this side, the rest of the tree is clean.

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt61/kevin12306/3e4d1e61-caf1-4bd7-86db-b71f5bf204ba_zpsbqeuyqcm.jpg) (http://s598.photobucket.com/user/kevin12306/media/3e4d1e61-caf1-4bd7-86db-b71f5bf204ba_zpsbqeuyqcm.jpg.html)
same size, limb on the right?
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt61/kevin12306/3a8538a3-c1e4-4136-9b66-e2721dd20e76_zpsbh6mbcmj.jpg) (http://s598.photobucket.com/user/kevin12306/media/3a8538a3-c1e4-4136-9b66-e2721dd20e76_zpsbh6mbcmj.jpg.html)
9/10 diameter
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt61/kevin12306/dfe3f880-67e0-4d4f-9572-8236b34d8f3c_zpsrhmvvwid.jpg) (http://s598.photobucket.com/user/kevin12306/media/dfe3f880-67e0-4d4f-9572-8236b34d8f3c_zpsrhmvvwid.jpg.html)
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Mounter on May 10, 2016, 02:49:13 pm
oops, 10/12, atleast a good 7 foot section.
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt61/kevin12306/e62020b7-c760-4146-bc60-d8918e2dda1d_zpsqzdv5x8s.jpg) (http://s598.photobucket.com/user/kevin12306/media/e62020b7-c760-4146-bc60-d8918e2dda1d_zpsqzdv5x8s.jpg.html)
 
couple smaller, 7/9 at the base
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt61/kevin12306/5100658b-1961-444a-8947-edc0dc39e21d_zpsgzi80nye.jpg) (http://s598.photobucket.com/user/kevin12306/media/5100658b-1961-444a-8947-edc0dc39e21d_zpsgzi80nye.jpg.html)
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt61/kevin12306/dff02de8-2c42-4071-acab-dd3a3a8dcb17_zpsloasvj2o.jpg) (http://s598.photobucket.com/user/kevin12306/media/dff02de8-2c42-4071-acab-dd3a3a8dcb17_zpsloasvj2o.jpg.html)
I'm hoping one of these can fit the bill. Their easy to get to and I can stay realatively tick and poison ivy free. But I have tons more if I need to keep looking?
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: bradsmith2010 on May 10, 2016, 07:40:23 pm
I think the cured wood will make a better bow,, but I can not prove that, I made lots of good shooting bows from wood that was just dry,,not cured,, so I don't know,, but a just dry bow, not cured,, will for sure kill a deer just as good as any  bow,, just depends on what our end goal is,,,just like a bow that follows the string and shoots a little slow, can make a great hunting bow,, maybe you have to pull a little extra weight to get the cast you want, but the deer will not know the difference ,, or really a target for that matter,,,, so it just depends on what you want and what your definition of good or great bow is,,,, I have a sinew bow I cracked when first bracing,, the tiller is off and I had to patch it,, its not a great bow,, but it shoots the best for me of all my bows,, I killed a deer with it last year,, if I posted it here people would want to cook hot dogs with it,, :),,,,its not the best bow I have ever made,, but it works the best,, hmmmmmm,, bow making can be infinitely interesting,,
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: Swampman on May 10, 2016, 09:17:22 pm
Mounter, you posted all those pictures of great trees.  I say start cutting and start drying.  Make a bow or 2 fast and get the rest to seasoning.  Then you can compare them eventually and post your findings. 

Looks like you will have enough trees to cut to last you a long time.
Title: Re: How fast?
Post by: bentstick54 on May 10, 2016, 10:58:58 pm
I'm with swampman. Cut several, split and seal them for future, but pick a stave out for quicker drying and make one for this fall. I like the 7"/9" and quarter them. Far easier to cut and get home. Easier to split and usually have less hidden surprises inside,.i.e branches broke off and new growth grew over and unseen until split, etc. Keep us posted.