Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: akila on April 06, 2016, 06:54:28 pm
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Hi guys, i just baught an osage stave from ebay, and today it came with the post, and i have to say, im a lilte dissapointed..it has incredibile thinn rings..somewhere in the midle they are so thinn that you can barely noticed animoore wich is what...i have all most no experience with Osage..just made a bow from Osage one week ago, and this would be the second Bow, that im working at..is there any chance, that a bow would come out in one piece out of something like that?
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/osage20mostra1_zpshxtioxg5.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/osage20mostra1_zpshxtioxg5.jpg.html)
There is one ring there, that looks a little thicker..its exactly 1millimeter thick or 0,39'' thick, and its all most the last saapwood ring..after him, there are two moore saapwod rings, but they are just pensil line thinn, and thenn commes the first hard wood ring wich is like 0.8mm...under 1mm thinn. In the picture where i hold the stave in an angle, you can see it better where the saapwood stops, etc. What would u advise me to do? I dont really want to back it..if i can get a clean ring on the back, is it safe, to make a bow out of something like that?
Thank you in advance..best regards, Ciprian.
PS...i forgot to say..the stave was quite long so i'v cut a piece, and put in water to see how heavy she is..the piecce of wood is 9,5cm long, and only 1cm, was out from the water.
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That ring about a half inch down from the back looks good. Shouldn't be too bad to chase.
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I'd use that first ring under the sapwood. It's pretty decent... relatively speaking. If I exposed it end to end for the bow's back and was confident I didn't violate it at all, I wouldn't back it.
I made a selfbow a consistent 36 rings per inch... AND very snaky... and convex on the back in places. It took a little set, but still shoots.
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Not the ideal stave considering the late to early ring ratio but you already have it so give it a go. Many real good bows have been made from thin ringed osage with carefully chased rings. More than likely I would guess there is a bow in that stave, pick one of the thickest rings and back with rawhide if in doubt. Worth a try unless you have other osage and even if you do I wouldn't give up on that one without a try.
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Not to be a real downer but that is not good. I have chased rings on several hundred staves and I would have a hard time with that one if it could even be done. The earlywood:latewood ratio is awful. About the only thing I can think to do is to do your best chasing a ring and then backing with rawhide. Make the bow wide and long.
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like others have said thin rings aren't the problem, the ratio is the problem with that wood. I agree with Greg and I would plan on backing with rawhide. I made one not too long ago with rings right around the same that you have and it's a great shooter. I think it would survive without the rawhide but sometimes peace of mind is well worth it
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Just for fun, go ahead and take the bark off and see if there are any other surprises. Working around a bunch of pin knots with super thin rings is usually unsuccessful (great skill level is an exception). If the back is clean, it will be worthwhile to practice scraping and sanding thin rings to improve your skill level, and maybe end up with a shooter.
It’s not going to be like designing average Osage, probably closer to hickory -> S.G. = low 70’s. I definitely think there’s a bow in there; just follow John’s advice and make it wider than normal (possibly 1.75”) and 3” or 4” longer than your last one. Go slow and protect you chosen ring by leaving most of the early growth until you’ve gone end-to-end. Then carefully sand down to the hard stuff.
H
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The last few sapwood ring ratio doesn't look to bad. You might try chasing one of them. You might as well see what you can get from it. If nothing else you will get a good lesson on chasing thin rings. That will help you on future bows.
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Send it to me...ill take care of it! >:D
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I got one from the same place
The rings on one end are mixed together, unchaseable.
going to have to back it .
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I would use that thickest sapwood ring for the back. Also you could do a belly split, those rings are much better and if it's at least an inch wide across the back it will make a fine bendy handle.
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I would use that thickest sapwood ring for the back. Also you could do a belly split, those rings are much better and if it's at least an inch wide across the back it will make a fine bendy handle.
My thoughts exactly.
But here is another thought, now I've never done this but have seen them done. You could make an edge grain bow. If you do it right you could have perfectly perpendicular growth rings down the length of the bow. Just follow the rings and treat the back the same as a chased ring.
Patrick
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I have a bow I made three years ago from a stave similar to that with tiny growth rings. That bow has held up just fine and been shot thousands of times. Id give it a go without a doubt.
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You would be happy if it were yew. I have heard the thinner the rings the less important it is to chase one exactly. I cut a bunch of osage in Utah and it all looks like this. If I cant find a ring I use sinew
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You might want to chase the ring with a scraper, I have honestly had very good bows come out of thin ringed osage. I used to avoid it but now I enjoy the lower prices I can get it for on e ebay. I don't hesitate to buy thin ringed osage anymore
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I usually make a bamboo backed bow out of osage like that.
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what Badger said, there is a bow in there,, its not bad at all,, just looks bad :)
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Agree with Badger - I've only made a couple of osage bows with thin rings but they both took basically no set and are both fast bows. No need to back it and think of thin rings like this....a perfectly chased ring of any thickness would be basically untouched anyway and therefore it doesn't matter what thickness it is :) My tactic is to chase the earlywood ring above the latewood ring that you actually want for the back and then use a super sharp scraper and 120 grit to remove the thin earlywood.
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Mike, thats the same way I do it, I have rounded the edges on my scraper at different radiuses and use it just for chasing rings and getting into the little grooves.
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Looks like some good rings 1/3 of the way down and towards the bottom.
If the concern is poor early latewood ratio, then leave the stave wider say 1.5 inches.
For the upper wood, chase your ring but if you keep missing back with rawhide.
I remember on one stave I went up and down several times before I succeeded.
Check my site.
http://traditionalarchery101.com/
Jawge
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same here Jawge, I have had to go a few rings down until I get the light touch to make one ring, but worth the effort,, :)
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Hello guys, and first of all thank you all for your help. Today i could not stay away from the Osage stave, so i had to work on it to see what i can get from it..i have to say, she is quite stuborn :)))...i will put some pictures so that you can see what i did today. UNfortunatly, the stave was not wide enugh at the bottom, so that i can use those thick rings there..i'v folowed that 1mm ring that i was talking aboute yestarday, and i have manage to have it clean..the entire work, debarking, reduce the stave to bow dimension, folowing the ring, took like 5 hours or so..so here are the pictures.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3708_zpsx4qatdnh.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3708_zpsx4qatdnh.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3709_zpsfehtahg5.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3709_zpsfehtahg5.jpg.html)
A new surprise was to descover this two long kracks on the back..they war very deep, and somehow realy stupid positioned. With a little bit of luck, i have managed to cut them out, and i have like 4cm width on that limb.a little bit more then 1,5'' wide.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3717_zpsax419umw.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3717_zpsax419umw.jpg.html)
The stave is quite reflexed as you can see in the picture.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3718_zpshce0tuxg.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3718_zpshce0tuxg.jpg.html)
A new surprise, was this big node. I was not expecting to be so big.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3719_zpsubektbqb.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3719_zpsubektbqb.jpg.html)
Here are some pin knots...they look like small staines and this is how they look on the belly side..
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3720_zps2ysqurrh.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3720_zps2ysqurrh.jpg.html)
And this one..a little bit snakey..with a little twist at one end..
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3722_zpshr18jdfq.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3722_zpshr18jdfq.jpg.html)
Puuuhhh, so quite alot of work on this one, and i have no ideea if in the end a bow will comme out of it. We will see :). I dont know, what should i do with that big knot there if i decide to back it with rawhide..should i make it flatt, or somehow trying to glue the rawhide on top of that stuff?
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You can flatten the punky limb wood and thin rawhide should be able to form to the contour. Wet it beforehand. Keep at it.
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Check out my post here about applying rawhide. If you do it right you could even cut out the hole in the knot after the rawhide dries.
Patrick
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,55778.2325.html
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Hi, yes i know how the rawhide should be glued and everithing..i did this a fiew times, and i was alo working with sinew..im not a begginer, its just that sometimes you encounter situations where you never been before, and its better if you just ask :). So i'v never aplyied rawhide on top of such a bulky knot :). I'm still thinking if i should even bak the entire thing..that knot is near the fade of the top limb, so there will not be to much bending going on on that area, but i will see how the wood looks on the belly side whenn i start tillering the bow. Thank you for your advice..
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No need to back it. Don't worry about the knot. Sealing the freshly exposed back with shellac is a good idea too. Even on 'dry' osage.
Good luck!
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I would back it. You never know where you might have nicked it with the scraper and a backing can save it. It's no guarantee as I have had many hours in a thin-ringed osage, backed it with rawhide, and still had it blow.
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Sorry about that, sometimes we give advice to so many people that I get lost in the conversation and don't realize that I'm talking to someone that knows what's going on. :laugh:
Patrick
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no don't make the knot flat,, the rawhide will shrink around it,, might need do tie to down a bit more in that area,,
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Thank you all for your help...next week i will work on the stave again...i have ordered some rawhide, and i will probably try to back it..after so much work with chasing the ring and everithing, i also somehow dont feel like risking with this one..also with rawhide its a risk, so..that knot is realy weird..beautifull somehow in his way, but reall weird..it commes out quite alot and the angle is very sharp...it looks all most like a fishing hook..
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I wouldnt back it, that knot would look awesome. I don't see any reason to not get a bow out of that as long as you do your part 8)
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I rare'ly chase a ring I use the ring under the sapwood no matter how thin the rings are.
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just don't flatten the knot,, whatever you decide,,
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A stave of any other wood with this quality I would return to the sender, but not osage. I recently made a shorty of such a thin- ringed osage with 49" in length, 49lbs / 23", with its heavily recurves it is a killer of a bow. No backing.
Go with it!
Michael
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Hi all, i finaly managed to finish the bow today..it was realy a long journey with this one.....i had to adapt along the way and to either accept having a decent bow, or having nothing. With one limb i had alot of dificulties..somehow the grain is weacker, and becose of those long craks that i had to eliminate, the width of the limb was not suficient for such a poor ratio betwen the early and the late wood, and it took some set..i dont remeber exactly how much reflexx the stave had at the beggining...it was aniway quite alot..maybe 4'' or so, and now what is left is somewhere arround 2''. It was also quite dificult to have the string run in the midle of the handle..its not perfect on the midle, but for a right handed shooter, its just perfect..im a lefty, and for me the string is a little bit to much to the left..aniway, the gripp is quite narrow, and whenn im shooting corectly, the bow shoots realy clean. If im doing funny things, the bow shows me imediatly. The limmbs have also a funy shape...you will see this in the pictures. The numers are..
65'' long NTN.
37-38lbs @28''.
Total mass...1,25 pound.
It is havyer as the first Osage bow that i'v posted here a couple of weeks ago..that one was a little under 1pound.
Finish with wax..
Buffalo Horn Overlays.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3772_zpsnwfcbzvl.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3772_zpsnwfcbzvl.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3776_zpsrcerrg3q.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3776_zpsrcerrg3q.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3774_zpsf2pshb13.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3774_zpsf2pshb13.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3778_zpsnthtfomf.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3778_zpsnthtfomf.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3775_zpsjhvpm8te.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3775_zpsjhvpm8te.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3779_zpsvxyu1fqh.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3779_zpsvxyu1fqh.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3780_zpsjvjn6wwo.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3780_zpsjvjn6wwo.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3782_zpshrijdpss.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3782_zpshrijdpss.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3783_zpsaw2sbmps.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3783_zpsaw2sbmps.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3768_zpsn36ixoq6.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3768_zpsn36ixoq6.jpg.html)
The full draw picture looks a bit funny..the bow dosent sit to wel on that tiller tree, becose of the shape of the handle. In the hand it looks better i think..or at least this is how it seams in the mirror :))).
What can i say, at the end of this, is that, a stave with thinn rings, will definitely make a beautiful gripp :))..the feathering, is just beautiful in the handle. The Bow needs to be designed a little bit longer, and wider..not to much, but a little bit for sure. I think i was really on the edge with 65'' NTN.
I'm curiose what the time will tell aboute this bow..we will see..today, i'v managed to shoot 120 arrows, and we will see. I dont know, if i got lucky with this one, but it worked without having the bow backed with rawhide, or something similar..i honestly have no ideea. Time will tell i quess.
THank you for helping me along my way, and i hope you will enjoy the pict.
Best regards, Ciprian.
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That's what I call lemonade from lemons right there! 8) Well done. Relatively flat unbraced profile, beautiful braced profile and very nice full draw. Congratulations! 8)
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yes congrats,, beautiful,, :)
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Nice work, that's reassured me about my thin ring stave :)
Del
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Very nice! Congratulations. You did very well. Jawge
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That looks great!
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Real nice, I like it!
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Exceptional work around that knot 8) 8) 8) Really nice bow from some challenging wood...
Don
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Man you really turned out a nice one from that stave. You must really know what you were doing? Great job!
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That turned out great buddy! Beautiful grip.
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Now that's a sweet bow right there! I really like the plain self bows without all of the wraps and skins and such. For some reason I just can't make on without the frills. Man that thin ring stuff sure makes a beautiful set of fades dosent it?
Patrick
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If that was in the bow of the month, I would definitely be voting for it!
Patrick
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That turned out very nice!
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That is a sweet bow. I like the profile of a it when braced. Congrats!
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You pulled that one off with style. Nice job! Hope to see it in the Bow of the Month!
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Hi guys, unfortunatly the wonder last only 2 days :-\. Today, i wanted to shoot the bow again, and i did, and after 20 arrows or so, i'v heard ''the noise'' that nobody wants to hear..a small ''crack'', and i was thinking, ohhhh no..this cannot be...i took the string of, and went directly to the upper limb, becose with that limb i had alot of trouble, and i descovered a small pin knot, reaaaaly small..3mm big or so, had give up..a small crack, maybe 2mm long, unfortunatly perpendicular on the grain..i was afraid ofcours to shoot the bow further, and this evening, i'v decided to try to save it, so i'v sinewed the bow..i realy hope that this will work.
Aboute that small pin knot...i dont know what to say..maybe i should have leave some extra material on top..i will definitely do this if i will encounter a thinn ring stave again. I also think that, the width of that specific limb was not enugh, for this specific stave..unfortunatly, those 2 big long cracks, made it unpossibile to have more material to work with...the lower limb has actualy more pin knots, and funny things on it, but it was perfectly fine. I had more material, and i left the lower limb little wider. Aniway, in a month or so, i will be able to shoot the bow again. Its realy frustrating whenn something like this is happening...i was realy working aloooot on this piece of wood :(. Aniway, maybe the batle is not lost yet :). We will see..thank for all your nice words...i dont think i can post bows in the Bow of the month category..i dont have a subscription on PA, and as far as i know, in order to have the right to participate to the Bow of the month, you need to have a subscription.
Best regards..Ciprian
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Your bows developed a stress crack and the start of a hange. Like'ly your tillering.
You can't really fix it other than retillering, lighting up you bow likely way to light.
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As far as your bow stave having thin rings. If it's osage normally I'll use the ring right under the sap wood.
If I can't use that ring. Unless there's a nice ring close, then I'll chase a ring. But I won't, because I've made 4 osage bows with rings to close to follow a ring. I just buld the bow untill your ready to tiller. Then I barnish the back. 3,4 mornings I'll barnish ,rebarnish some more. I do it as hard as I can. I use a beer bottle.
If your thinking of staining or drying to it before you barnish. Next I just finish it up like any other bow.
I've never back any of these bows anymore than snake skins. With osage I like to finish with spray polly and let nature take it course. And it'll get that burn't orange with age.
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Hi guys..like i said on my last post, that i will try to sinew the bow to save it, did is what i did, and here is the bow. The final weight is 40lbs @ 28''. I'v wached the picture of the Bow at full draw, before i had the problem with that pin knot giving up, and i'v noticed a small flat area exactly in the midle of the limb, and this was making the limb bending to much on the outer part, and i think this was the problem that caused that pin knot to give up. I'v sanded that area, until that small crack was gone..becose the rings are so thinn, ofcurs that the back apeared imediatly as violated arround that knot, but honestly i dont think that this is a huge problem when it comes aboute staves with rings that are so tight..i remember at a certain point i made a bow out of black locust, for my brother, and i encounter the same problem...incredibile tight rings, and at that time i was just a beginner, and i remeber that i had a small area where the back was violated, and the bow is in perfect condition even today..the bow was light tough..36-37lbs@28''. Aniway, i think its possibile to get away with a violated back, if the rings are very very thinn. So here are the pictures with the bow right now. I still want to wrap the handle in leather, and i need to make proper string. In the pict. its the tiller string. The bow feels much faster right now. The final mass right now is, 590grams, so only 40grams extra weight, but the bow pulls also more with 2lbs, so i think its a fair winn situation.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3944_zpso6divrkn.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3944_zpso6divrkn.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3945_zpshyeeqzoh.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3945_zpshyeeqzoh.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/Akila_07/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3946_zpshpmfpibv.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Akila_07/media/Osage%20Bow/IMG_3946_zpshpmfpibv.jpg.html)
After shooting the bow, the tips are still 8cm reflexed, and after an hour or so, it goes back to 10cm. Before adding the sinew backing, the bow never went back to the initial reflex that the stave had. Now the sinew pulls back the wood to his initial form. Again, the time will tell if this bow will become a real shooter, or not. I hope he will be a shooter :). Thanks again for all your help.
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Looks good buddy! Nice save!
That dude will be 45lbs by the end of the summer, once that sinew cures for a while longer. My first bow was sinew backed and after 6 months it was 34lbs at 27in now it's 41lbs at 27in.
Patrick
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Honestly i hope he will not gain more pfounds...it has only one layer of sinew. I wouldnt want to over stress the belly, with those thinn rings that this stave had...
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looks very nice, congrats on your bow
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Well I'll be...
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Ups..sorry, pictures are back :).
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Love this bow!! Congrats!!