Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: slybynight on March 29, 2016, 07:41:08 pm
-
Hi guys. first post and glad to be amongst you all. About 2 months ago my eldest expressed an interest, and trying to be a good dad... I sugested we make one. Zero experience. Zero research! Mistake 1. A length of Hazel was selected with about 2 inch diameter and a natural slight bend.... cos thats what shape bows should be right (duurrr). Mistake 2. A jigsaw was run down the length of the bow to produce 2 arms and risers to a handle about 7" long. The bark was scraped off and the arms cut to shape with little regard for natural grain. A tillering stick and pulley mechanism was built, and belly rasping begun. So here's where im at. Despite making every mistake in the book I have ended up with something that doesnt look too bad and has thus far survived tillering. It is, quite honestly awfull, but ai have invested hours in it and as long as it holds together would like to continue to a point where it flings a stick a few yards so the lad thinks Dad's not a complete numpty and I can learn from my mistakes as yet unmade! ... Ive even removed some wood from the back of the bow on a bulging bit (DOH) but surprisingly that bit is still holding up OK. Ive gone for a flat cross section (belly), but because of the small diameter of the stave, it has ended up rather "D" shaped. So.. on to my questions.... I am struggling to get the brace height to anything reasonable... currently about 1.5". after struggling to brace it (leg through) it actually adopted quite a worrying set (been cut and left in a garage for about 2 months). I bent it back straight again, but am a bit worried I have damaged the wood. A bit of reading round here seems to suggest heat treating the belly? can I do this at this stage? Its for my 10 yr old (its a few inches taller than him). I can pull it to his draw, but he cant. Id estimate about 50lb. do I continue sanding to get the weight down? will the brace height automatically increase with this? Should I heat treat belly? before or after further belly removal? Its actually tillering quite nicely... no hinges. Im trying to keep the ends a little meaty because the nocks look so fragile. Any advice very welcome.
-
Well first of all you may want to change the title to Bowyer wanna be :)
-
Welcome slybynight! Do you have pictures? I'm not sure I can help you, I'm a novice myself but for others who are more experienced it probably help to see it.
-
Yup.. Fair point Marc St Louis.. half a bow does not a bowyer make! Will upload Pics asap.
-
Del the Cat will probably join in here at some point, but if you have a look at his Bowyer's Diary he's got a LOT of info about making hazel bows, including speed drying the wood.
-
Im going to try ang get some pics before work and upload them later (uk time). any angles/ detail that will be particularly useful?
-
Hi, you've probably just about asked in time to avoid disaster!
1. Build a tiller rig with a scale (you can get cheap baggage scales which go up to 50#) and take pics. Set a target draw weight (I'd suggest no more than 40#) and pull it to that every time UNLESS the bend is uneven or you see a problem.
2. Store it on a warm radiator or near a boiler etc to help it season.
3. Don't worry about natural deflex or set, it will help it to not explode!
4. Build time machine, go back and leave the bark on the back :laugh:
Just google 'bowyers diary' there is plenty about Hazel on there and the search facility works quite well.
Del
-
Unfortunately you have probably made some fatal mistakes so far (smoothing out the hump on the back) but you learn a lot from your first bow!
Your 2nd will be much better :)
So my advice is to go cut another couple of staves now before the sap rises properly. Then order yourself the first volume of the Traditional Bowyers Bible - this book will answer all your questions.
Then get back to work on this one :)
Do I detect a hint of northern in your post?!? I'm in County Durham and could show you the basics if you are anywhere near.
-
OK some pics... (http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s520/slybynight/Mobile%20Uploads/20160330_074829_zpsgjzmmpax.jpg~original) (http://s1055.photobucket.com/user/slybynight/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160330_074829_zpsgjzmmpax.jpg.html) - Lighter for scale!
closeup of handle and fade..
(http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s520/slybynight/Mobile%20Uploads/20160330_074850_zpsoni2ba8r.jpg~original) (http://s1055.photobucket.com/user/slybynight/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160330_074850_zpsoni2ba8r.jpg.html)
Closeup of my back shaving boob!
(http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s520/slybynight/Mobile%20Uploads/20160330_075652_zps9lmytodq.jpg~original) (http://s1055.photobucket.com/user/slybynight/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160330_075652_zps9lmytodq.jpg.html)
Length of bow has a bit of set - but it was naturally curved this way anyway....
(http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s520/slybynight/Mobile%20Uploads/20160330_075110_zpsamrmw4uw.jpg~original) (http://s1055.photobucket.com/user/slybynight/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160330_075110_zpsamrmw4uw.jpg.html)
seems to tiller ok though.... so far!
(http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s520/slybynight/Mobile%20Uploads/20160330_075515_zpsxjuawqyr.jpg~original) (http://s1055.photobucket.com/user/slybynight/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160330_075515_zpsxjuawqyr.jpg.html)
-
Del –Many thanks for the feedback - I’ll try and get it somewhere warmer. How long should I leave it there for at this stage? – I actually found your blog already – very useful , thanks! As the photos show, I have left the cambium – apart from the shaved spot ;-(. I’ll also buy some baggage scales what draw weight should a well built 10 year old be looking at to last him a couple of years?
Mike – thank you to you also. I’ll get a copy of the TBB V1. I’m thinking I might buy some staves – any supplier recommendations? I’m a southerner I’m afraid – 4 years in Salford must have left their mark! Was it use of the word numpty?
-
another bowyer wannabe, haven't gotten farther than you... but I think you should wrap that shaved back part with something?
-
Your first effort looks pretty good to me despite all the crimes against bow making youve committed (I'm a major offender myself also ;)) it may hold up as Hazel can be very forgiving of damage to the back.
I would recommend to keep going with hazel as it's so easy to get hold of, dry and work. It will make a really good bow of handled right. You can save yourself some money while you're getting to grips with the basics. Welcome aboard! :)
-
I'd think 25# @ 26" would be about right for a 10 yr old and give a fair bit of grow room.. I don't expect he'll draw past 24" at the moment.
I'd treat this one as totally experimental and just keep working on it. But get some more seasoning.
The belly of a bow should go up and down to follow the back (but with some taper) rather than shaving the back... mind there are times when you have to take abit off the back if there are really weird things going on there!
Del
-
Thank you all for your comments - I need as much guidance as poss! How long should I season for? I think this is called a sapling bow right? Should I make another of these or go for something with a bigger diameter next? Do I need to treat the ends with anything while seasoning? Should I wrap the shaved back? with what? Should I heat treat the belly? before of after more seasoning? Should I do seasoning before or after further shaving? I was going to cut in a shelf. How far dare I go? Any recommendations on string? HOW MUCH IS TBB!!!!!! from £45 used!! - I'll not be buying a physical copy of that then, I haven't got a Kindle - but it would be cheaper to buy one!!
-
That can't be right... you only want volume 1. It can't be £45, there are some silly prices... one idiot trying to sell it for £100.
i think the cover price is about £20? I'll chech when I get home.($22.95)
Try here
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-traditional-bowyers-bible-volume-1-/401095952749?hash=item5d632e896d:g:rEgAAOSwdU1W97bZ (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-traditional-bowyers-bible-volume-1-/401095952749?hash=item5d632e896d:g:rEgAAOSwdU1W97bZ)
Del
-
Its hard to find copies of it these days. I could not buy it electronically either, had to import if from the US to Australia. Wasn't cheap. They should do another run of them
-
This isn't a short story. It's just the intro to a lonnnnng story! Good luck!
-
If you don't have any luck finding a TBB vol 1 in the UK for a decent price, perhaps you can find "The Bent Stick" by Paul Comstock. It's between $10-15 here. It's 51 pages long. It has a lot of good info and covers the basics of making white wood bows.
-
My County (Oxfordshire) library has copies of The art of making primitive bows and arrows by D.C. Waldorf and The bowyers craft by Jay Massey both of which are great books. even if your library didn't have these I believe different Counties library services lend each other books. Could be an option?! :)
-
Unlike Humpty Dumpty, a Numpty Dumpty can climb back up on the wall and start another bow once this one has been "mended beyond repair" (a Del the Cat quote).
Good on you for taking on this task with your son! Best of fortune to the two of you!
-
Thanks guys! I've got a bid in on that ebay TBB book - its a bit mouldy though! Thanks for all the other book recommendations too! Indeed - I see a lot of Bows in my future! I really dont want to break this one though - its SO close! - I reckon it would shoot right now.... if I had anything to shoot at!..... or with !!!!
-
Sorry to repeat these q's guys but I could really do with some guidance on them... How long should I season for? I think this is called a sapling bow right? Do I need to treat the ends with anything while seasoning? Should I wrap the shaved back? with what? Should I heat treat the belly? before or after more seasoning? Should I do seasoning before or after further shaving? I was going to cut in a shelf. How far dare I go? Any recommendations on string? Just to add the bow is now under my bed... not in the garage.
-
Not sure whether purchase method for electronic versions varies for the UK vs US but:
1.You do not need to own a Kindle to read Kindle books. You can add a free Kindle reader application to most other operating systems, including Android, Win, Mac. Calibre can also work in Linux.
The Kindle app is available for most major smartphones, tablets and computers. That means with the free Kindle reading apps, you can read a Kindle book on any device with the Kindle app installed*. You can also read that same Kindle book on a Kindle device if you own one.
*For iPhone and iPod, and iPad users: Obtain Kindle eBooks from any web browser and choose to have your eBook delivered to your app.
*Kindle for PC and Mac applications running a software version below 1.11.0 are no longer supported. To continue reading on your app you should download the latest version of the Kindle for PC and Mac. If you are running an operating system that is not compatible with our app, you may continue reading from your computer with Kindle Cloud Reader.
2.) All of the TBBS are available in electronic (Kindle) format.
-
So far with hazel you do not need to be too obsessed with seasoning it properly because it doesn't tend to check. The fastest and safest way with saplings is to work on it to floor tiller while green and season according to the wood. You can speed the drying process of hazel and when you remove the bark you do not need to wrap the back. Also if this is going to be a kids bow with below 30 pounds than I wouldn't heat treat it because you aren't going to overstress the compression side. But If you ever plan on making one for yourself I would surely heat treat it because it would add performance and safety. Try to finish this one and gather as much info as you can. Unfortunately the TBB doesn't have much info on making sapling bows. Good luck
-
Much much thanks for all your help and wise words. An update to my story...... I AM A BOWYER!!!!! it shoots! it actually works!!!! I did a bit more scraping and a lot more sanding and have left it above a radiator. It still had a ridiculously low brace height, but I got the fear with further tillering and thought id give it a go before the unthinkable (inevitable) happened!. I bought some pads from amazon.. they are a bit small, but fine for my son. I dug out some crossbow bolts i had lying around and set up some damp chipboard as a target. I havent cut a shelf yet, so shot off the knuckle. very tricky at first as the xbow bolts dont have a gripping nock... just a v shaped cutout. after a few missfires... Success!! oh boy! its soooo powerful! I cant pull it to my draw, Im about 6"from my chin, but i nailed the wet chipboard worksurface to the solit wood Id put behind it! got some nice red marks on my arm from missfires and small pads. Lad had a go and got the arrow to stick in the target from about 10m. there has been a bit of set but not too bad. Interestingly, while putting the bow back in its home, i have noticed spots of raised grain right down the length of its belly, kind of like a leopardskin pattern. Its like the uppermost fibres have been raised slightly by the compression? I must have done something right because the spots are evenly distibuted along the belly. They will sand off ok.... I havr to scrape a bit more to make it useable for the lad. Once I am done, can I treat the wood somehow to prevent this? all in all a great day of fun! Back to that hazel tree to make some better arrows now!
-
I bought my paperback copies of TBB for about 15€ each, second hand on Amazon.com (as good as new). Still available for similar prices there.
Some idiots on the german amazon are trying to sell single copies for 600€...
you can find the paperbacks new for 20-25 USD, the complete set sells at 3rivers archery for 90 USD.
Trust me, you really want hardcopies, not digital versions only.
As for sapling seasoning: weigh the stave every day until the weight stops dropping for a few consecutive days. That means the wood is at equilibrium moisture with the environment. Mind you, the environment in the UK (where you're from?) is now still a bit too moist for ideal bow making conditions. I have difficulty (in Belgium) to get below 13% even indoors, whereas 10% would be a lot better and I guess it aint better in the UK.
-
All the TBB are available here http://www.horsefeathersranch.com/archery.htm plus many other books
-
OK - bit of further tillering and I'm nearly there - handle shaped and shelf cut in. I am thinking that once I am done - linseed oil all over it? am I right? Also, the string is currently some braided nylon cord from the DIY shop - I dont really trust it - what bowstring would people recommend for my hazel selfbow?
-
I would glue a strip of silk or linen onto the whole back. It will break one day at the spot where you reduced the back. You can use normal pva or a carpenter woodglue for the backing or buy some gelatine and make some hide glue.
The 'leopardskin' sounds like a load of chrysals or compression fractures. This is because the wood was likely still a bit damp. Until wood is down to a decent moisture content it doesn't have the required strength in compression to handle being a bow.
-
Congratulations!
Here's my site, just in case you need it.
Jawge
http://traditionalarchery101.com/
-
Sounds like your hooked now. If you haven't already I'd harvest more staves and gain some more knowledge. I know that feeling shooting your bow it's very exciting. Start another before you wear this one out try to not make the mistakes again and take your time good luck welcome to the club